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Angels & Miracles anyone?

warriorwritergirl77This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. posted this thread...
Nov. 30, 2016 at 1:42 am

So I am kinda obsessed with everything angels and miracles. Real miracles btw, not fake or staged ones. Here people can share if they believe in angels&miracles, can share any experiences with either or just comment. I will start.
 
1) This is something that i don't remember myself but my mom told me I did when I was younger. I was like four and told my mom that my grandmother needed help. She didn't know what I meant but she went to go and visit my grandmother and apparently the time she got there someone was doing something really horrible to her. It was a miracle that my mom showed up when she did.
 
2) I also apparently used to see angels a lot when I was little, as I was told, once again no memory from me.
 
3) This I remember. There was a woman at my church who got shot and the bullet was in a dangerous spot. We all prayed for and two weeks later she went to the doctor and they couldn't find the bullet anywhere. She even had x-rays to prove it really was there.
 
4) Three people from my church had cancer and after praying for them, not long after they went completely cancer-free.
 
5) Witnessed someone with a shorter leg have it grow during church. Before our eyes!
 
6) This is kinda on the darkerside but twice I have actually seen a demon. It freaked me out and I immediately starting prayer afterwards.

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Mr.packerbear12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Dec. 1, 2016 at 12:30 am

Number 5 sounds pretty staged to me. Im not real big on "healing" things at public places as they are staged. I mean how else is the pastor gonna get nice big checks? The church is a business..my brother in law graduated with a music degree and is now a music pastor, he had no idea how much of a business it really was..he's trying to get out of it now..not to innocent as it looks from the outside. but do I believe miracles happen? yes.

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Dec. 1, 2016 at 1:41 am

It wasn't staged. My church isn't one of those big commercial type churches, the paster isn't getting any big checks. It's just a small little church in philly with people with big faith. It may sound staged but its a pretty normal thing to happen at my church. A leg growing happens a lot and it doesn't get any publicity, its just something we thank God for. While I do agree that some churches are run like businesses, my church isn't. So no miracle that takes place there is fake or for selfish reasons. It comes from serious prayer, faith, and the mighty hand of God.

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stuntddude replied...
Dec. 1, 2016 at 8:33 am

"It may sound staged but its a pretty normal thing to happen at my church."
 
You should take a video of it next time then.

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Dec. 1, 2016 at 9:46 am

I can't just pull out my phone and take a video myself of someone going through healing but my church already videotapes it. We videotape every service so I'm sure there is video evidence somewhere.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Dec. 1, 2016 at 11:48 am

Cool! I definitely believe in miracles, and although I can't think of anything too dramatic I've witnessed myself I've heard about a lot of well-documented ones. :)
 
One of my favorites is the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Have you heard about that? In 1531, Mary appeared to a poor Indian named Juan Diego and asked him to have a church built on Tepayac Hill (where they were standing). Juan told the bishop about it, and the bishop asked for a sign that it was really Mary who had appeared. So Mary told Juan to gather roses from the top of the hill and bring them to the bishop. Even though it was winter, Juan found roses of castille blooming on Tepayac Hill, put them in his tilma (which is a simple cloak woven of - cactus fibers, I think) and brought them back to the bishop. When he poured the roses out, an image could be seen on his tilma - the image of the Lady as she had appeared to him. 
 
It sounds like it could be a legend, but it's not. The tilma, with the image still on it, can be seen to this day in the basilica Our Lady requested built. How the tilma, which should have crumbled away within twenty years, has remained intact and beautiful for all these centuries is inexplicable. No one can explain how the image was put on the tilma - it wasn't painted or anything like that. A close look at the lady's eyes shows that the irises/pupils reflect an image of several men, which would be a truly amazing feat for an artist of those days. There have even been explosions in the basilica when a bomb was planted just behind the tilma, and although the things around it (metal crucifixes, etc) were bent and twisted, the flimsy tilma remained almost unscathed. It's just amazing the kinds of things God does for us. :)

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Mr.packerbear12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Dec. 2, 2016 at 12:49 am

the offering during services is for overhead for the church and the people that work for the church, the pastor gets the majority of it. It's how every church is ran. Also, please provide us with video.

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Dec. 2, 2016 at 12:57 am

I know how a church is ran. Also, I will try to break into my church's video archives and search each and every one to find the supplementary evidence you request.

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stuntddude replied...
Dec. 5, 2016 at 6:25 pm

Assuming my sarcasm detector is working, I take it that means you don't have video evidence?

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Dec. 6, 2016 at 9:45 am

Your sarcasm detector is functioning. I don't have video evidence but my church does. I just don't have a quickly accessible video on my phone or anything.

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TheNobleSavage replied...
Dec. 12, 2016 at 8:50 am

If your pastor/preaher/religious leader can perform medical miracles like that, get him to the nearest hospital. There are plenty of people who could use a miracle like that, if such a thing exists.
 
For the record, I am a bit skeptical of extraordinary claims, including miracles.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Dec. 13, 2016 at 8:27 am

Miracles don't work like magic, though. If a person is a miracle-worker, it's not really that person who's working the miracles, it's God. It wouldn't work to go to the nearest hospital and hand out healings like Rapunzel from Tangled could. :)

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TheNobleSavage replied...
Dec. 14, 2016 at 3:10 am

Why wouldn't a god want to heal as many people as possible? I recall Jesus doing something similar in the New Testament. Anyways, one would expect that a pastor/miracle-worker blessing the sick would fair much better than an atheist going through the same motions.
 
Here's an experiment that would convince me. You will have three test groups, consisting of sick or injured people who have chosen out of their own free will to ask to be a part of the experiment (ie they've come to a religious figure to be healed). One is the control, and receives no blessing of any kind. The second test group is blessed by a preacher. The third test group is "blessed" by an atheist who is pretending to go through the exact same motions as the preacher (this acts as a placebo group). Additionally, groups 2 and 3 will both be told that the man giving the blessing is a miracle-worker, in order to eliminate any bias. Additionally, the researchers will not know which test group got the atheist or the preacher.
 
Now, if the preacher's success rate is higher than both the control and the atheist, we might have something going on. If preacher and the atheist have around the same success rate higher than the control, I would have reason to believe that blessings are simply placebos.
 
Repeat this until your results are statistically significant, and there you go: evidence that I am more willing to trust.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Dec. 14, 2016 at 5:26 pm

Of course God wants the best for people. But that doesn't mean He'll perform a miracle for every sick person. He works in mysterious ways. Sometimes it's better for someone's spiritual health to be physically sick.
 
Performing an experiment like that to see if miracles happen under certain circumstances would be....wrong. It's seeing the free works of God, which are mysterious and wonderful, as something that can be controlled by people. 
 
I do agree with you that we have to be kinda cautious about alleged miracles, though. If everyone went running after everyone who claimed to be a miracle-worker, we'd have a problem. That's why the Catholic Church has a long process of investigating miracles to see if they're genuine or not.

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stuntddude replied...
Dec. 15, 2016 at 5:07 am

What's that? An experiment to figure out whether or not faith healing really works? Sounds like it's time for my favorite line...
 
"God works in mysterious ways."
 
Oh yeah, that's the one. If you can't present evidence that your beliefs are true, you can at least make them impossible to disprove, right?
 
"Performing an experiment like that to see if miracles happen under certain circumstances would be....wrong."
 
Many people have similar reactions when confronted with things that have the potential to undermine their current beliefs.
 
"It's seeing the free works of God, which are mysterious and wonderful, as something that can be controlled by people."
 
Measuring something does not mean you will be able to control it. There are plenty of things outside our control, but anything that has an effect on the world can be measured. That's a basic tautology of the universe we live in.

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Dec. 15, 2016 at 5:53 am

On your last point, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but have you heard of quantum theory? People just simply observing what happens changes the results- it's actually pretty interesting.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Dec. 15, 2016 at 11:47 am

Look, I have no problem with science testing faith. But there's a difference between trying to produce miracles in a controlled situation and looking at the effects of a miracle and testing that. For example, there have been dozens of Eucharistic miracles where a consecrated host began bleeding, or turned into visible flesh, when it was desecrated. Scientists have then taken these miraculous hosts and tested them, and quite often they've found that the visible flesh was actual human flesh (wish I could remember the details -- as I remember, once they found it to be heart tissue from a man who had undergone extreme stress/suffering as would happen during crucifixion). Science has been unable to explain phenomena like that, and all evidence has pointed to the fact that certain cases were in fact miraculous. However, taking something and doing scientific tests on it is a totally different thing from setting up an experiment with control groups and trying to see if we can make a miracle happen. God isn't confined to circumstances the way science is. Further, miracles aren't something that happens every day, because then they wouldn't be miracles. God set the limits of science on the world for a reason, and only transcends them when He, in His divine wisdom, judges best for our good.

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TheNobleSavage replied...
Dec. 15, 2016 at 1:45 pm

To elaborate on quantum mechanics, the observer effect does not require a sentient observer. Anything that disrupts a quantum system will cause the wavefunction to collapse.
 
Getting back to the experiment, God does not have to heal every single person. However, if God does work through people like pastors and priests, according to statistics, we should see significantly more healings involving a priest than an atheist pretending to be a priest.
 
Again, miraculous events that can't be explained through science can't be assumed to be divine. That is an argument from ignorance fallacy. If we took that approach, we might still believe that the retrograde of Mercury was an act of God (can be explained by general relativity) or that the complexity of the eye could only be explained by God (can be explained by evolutionary theory).

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NimWallaceThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Dec. 15, 2016 at 5:22 pm

TheNobleSavage, you do raise a fair few points (and I am a devoted Christian) but there are a few flaws in your arguement. 

 For one thing, science has proved mistakes through generations. Theories thought to be correct are proven wrong or adjusted, scientists are human and make mistakes or misreadings. It happens. 

 However, there is no substantial evidence that anything that is not divine is science, nor likewise. One would have to have tunnel vision to assume that there is only two options: science, or the divine. 

 In conclusion, I believe they can co-exist perfectly. I believe God created mankind and the earth and miracles. I believe He is behind every scientfic conclusion ever. There is no substantial evidence that this is wrong. 

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Dec. 15, 2016 at 5:43 pm

@NimWallace

Preach it. I think that you need both science and religion to fully comprehend the universe. And even then, there's still things we don't understand.
 
Also, I mean no offense here, but I don't think it's very fair to shoot down someone's beliefs just because they don't have evidence to back it up. I think of it like this. You've tasted salt, right? Okay, then, tell me what salt tastes like without using the words 'salt' or 'salty.' You can't really do it. But you know what salt tastes like, you've experienced it. Believing in God is like tasting salt. You believe in him, and the proof you have is in the feelings you've felt. But you can't describe those feelings to someone else. So while we don't have physical proof of God's existence, we have proof that we can't really describe to someone else unless they've felt it.
 
As for the experiment, I don't think that would neccesarily work if we're playing by Christian philosophy. According to the bible, miracles/healings only occured if the one being healed AND the healer both had faith. So, once again if we're playing by what Christians believe, dressing and aethiest up as a pastor wouldn't work because the aethiest doesn't have faith in God.
 
Okay, long rant, sorry. The point is, yes. I'm a firm believer of Angels and Miracles :)

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