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The Catholic Church and G.ay Marriage

MorganRF replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 2:09 pm

No. Nobody said that. Keep things in perspective, please

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 3:17 pm

Morgan, I know you didn't mean to say that. But it's the logical conclusion of your universal statement, "love is love." Just hear me out, please - I think this is the first time we've had things in perspective.
If everything that feels like or claims to be love is love, then ad.ultery is love, because the adul.terers feel like and claim that they do love each other. They don't think of it as adu.ltery at all; often the argument is "this marriage isn't binding because it's not really love." For example, Gatsby thought he had a right to Daisy even though she was married because he loved her before her husband did. Or Paris thought he had a right to Helen because Aphrodit.e promised her to him. All sins against the pur.ity claim to be "love."

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MorganRF replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 3:26 pm

Actually, I did mean to say that. Yes, they do have feelings for each other, but I honestly don't see it as "true love". Nobody else does. Again, we're talking about g.ay marriage, not adult.ery. Please keep to the subject, please don't tell me what I do and do not mean when you really don't know, and please keep things in perspective

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 3:32 pm

Okay. But please try to understand my point. I was just trying to make the connection that even though a.dulterers have feelings for each other and think they're in love, they're not in true love (like you said), and it's the same thing with g.ays.
 

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MorganRF replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 3:41 pm

There is a major difference between adu.lte.ry and g.ay love, though. G.ay love is real, true love, and most people would agree with this statement. It's only the devout Catholics who believe that g.ay love isn't true love. Even some Catholics are starting to come around and agree that g.ay marriage is OK.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 3:43 pm

How do you know g.ay love is true and real, though? If you don't have any relgious beleifs, what is your basis for morality?

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 3:44 pm

Also, it's incredibly sad when people who call themselves Catholics reject the Church's teaching on g.ay marriage. True Catholics will never do that.

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MorganRF replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 3:50 pm

I base my beliefs on morality on what I believe is right, deep down inside. I know g.ay love is true love because that's what my heart, my gut, and my conscience tell me. It has nothing to do with religion. Also, your definition of a true Catholic and my definition of a true Catholic are completely different, I guess. I went to a Catholic school for two years, and a lot of the girls I went to school with agreed with my standpoint. One of my former Catholic Theology instructors, if I am correct, is g.ay. In my opinion, that does not make them any less Catholic than you, nor does it mean that they are not true Catholics

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 21, 2016 at 5:15 pm

Oh - so a conscience based on feeling? I guess I can understand that. I'm learning in ethics right now about how a conscience has to be formed by the intellect. But that's a topic better addressed in another thread.
I know lots of "Catholic" schools aren't really following the Church's teachings anymore, and it's very sad to me. There's such a lack of understanding about what the Church's stance on stuff really is, even in Catholic circles. If you'd like to continue this discussion, maybe we could transfer it to the "Questions About Catholicism" thread? :)

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 5:38 am

Lucy-Agnes
 
I'm an athiest. To me marriage has no religious holdings. Actually, to me marriage isn't really important at all, but that's another story. My point is, many people get married for many different reasons and some never do. So, yes, this may be a broader concept that what you're used to and what would be right for you.
 
I'm not sure if you meant to imply that ase.xual people don't want to get married if they don't want se.x, but that's a huge misconception. Plenty of ase.xual people want to and do get married.
 
"How does the re.prod.uctive tract and ur.inary tract being mixed make anything better? It's still unnatural."
 
I'll break it down:
- You said it's unnatural to mix the reproductive and gastrointestinal tracts
- I responded by saying that the other waste system (the urinary tract) is naturally mixed with the reproductive tract in men.
- Ergo, in men, it's completely natural to have a waste system mix with the reproductive system.
 
Clearly this is not a fool-proof argument to suggest that ga.y se.x is natural (although I think it is), but it does go against your idea that mixing waste systems with reproductive is unnatural.

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 5:41 am

Adultery can definitely be "true love". That doesn't make it a moral thing to do, but completely removing adultery from love is an unrealistic way to go about this argument. That's not to say all adultery is linked with love, because it's not like that either.
 
People are complex. Maybe we could remember that whilst having these conversations.

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stuntddude replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 11:51 am

"It's not a feeling at all, it's - well, a desire for the other's good."
 
Desire is a feeling.
 
Lucy-Agnes:
 
"regarding "different holes"...I fail to see how it's natural to mix the re.prod.uctive tract with the di.gestive tract."
 
Congratulations! You have just discovered that there is *more than one way for people to have se.xual intercourse!* Many of which are known to have been used for as long as there have been in humans, and plenty of which are known to occur in other species as well. Assuming you have a sane definition of "nature", that definitely makes it natural.
 
Not that being natural makes something good or that being unnatural makes it bad. Don't get me wrong, I like modern medicine and consumer electronics as much as the next guy.
 
"It's painful to think about, really."
 
Only if you don't have lu.be ;)
 
"I just don't understand why you would start a relationship with someone without having marr.iage as an ultimate goal."
 
I don't understand why you would want to marry someone with s.ex as the ultimate goal.
 
"It's depressing."
 
I agree, your outlook on romance is pretty bleak :P
 
"How does the re.prod.uctive tract and ur.inary tract being mixed make anything better?"
 
Sounding.
 
"If "love is love," then adultery is right."
 
No. You're missing the point (and frankly, so is Morgan). Love is love, but like any emotional tautology, it's possible to act on it in both moral and immoral ways. Adultery isn't a kind of love, it's an action that people take because of love. It's immoral because it disregards the feelings of the other person in a relationship and will probably make them feel alienated, unwanted, or betrayed. G.ay romances, by contrast, have no such fine print. They can be (and usually are) as healthy as any straight romance.
 
Jubilex:
 
"wanting to jump someone's bones"
 
Never heard this expression before, but will be stealing it for future use, thanks.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 2:26 pm

Hang on a second, guys. We're arguing about trees when there's a forest at stake.
Let's forget about g.ay relationships for one moment and talk about marriage. Marriage as the Catholic Church sees it.
What is marriage? Marriage is a covenant between one man and one woman, a giving completely of oneself to the other. In marriage, the two are joined as one flesh. They become one in everything, not just in a bodily way; their bodily union is a symbol of their marital union. The marital act (so much more poetic than "s.ex", don't you think?) is a great privilege reserved for married couples alone; it is a way they can show their love for one another and cooperate with God in the procr.eation of children. If God gives them children, they become a family - husband, wife, and child become a reflection of the Trinity, a triangle of love. The family is the basis of society. In the family, children first learn to live as social beings. The home is a nurturing place preparing good citizens and heroes for the world. In mother and father, the children see an example of self-sacrificing love.
 

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 2:28 pm

Marriage depends on love between the spous.es; but this love is not just a feeling. It's an active choice, a promise to stay with one another "until death do us part." Marriage is not always poetic and easy and romantic; on the contrary, it is often very hard, very tiring, very unromantic. There are quarrels. There are disagreements. There are flaws. But always the husband and wife must stay by each other, help each other to become who they were meant to be.

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Admin. replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 2:58 pm

[raises hand]


I remember marriage as being somewhat interestingly twisted by royal families. Wasn't it generally arranged and used to create alliances? Weren’t the married couple just pawns?


Not to mention the fact that Yaakov (Jacob) and Rachel and Leah were a polyamourus triad in a marriage. Not only that, but Yaakov was tricked into marrying Leah. Is that a true marriage?


What about child marriages? I'm sure you've read about Rivka (Rebecca), she was approximately three years old (according to most commentaries) and Yitzchak (Isaac) was forty when they were engaged. Of course, they waited ten years, but it does put some perspective on the Biblical idea of 'marriage....'


Watch your comparisons and talk of ancients, they may come back to bite you.
 
-Admin

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 3:25 pm

You mean like in Egypt? :) Or just in general? Sure, I guess royal families have used marriage as a means to and end more than as an end in itself. But that doesn't change how marriage is supposed to be. I was talking about how marriage is supposed to be, not what it's always been like. :)
 
To be quite honest, I've always been a little puzzled by Jacob and his two wives and similar questions, like Soloman having 1000 wives or whatever it was. Keep in mind that just because people are Biblical characters doesn't mean they're perfect. Soloman was rebuked for his sin. Anyway, when Jesus came to earth he put the smack down on the marriage question - (I'm paraphrasing here) - "Because of the hardness of your hearts divorce was allowed, but in the beginning, it was not so."
 
 

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stuntddude replied...
Mar. 22, 2016 at 7:48 pm

"What is marriage?"
 
A legal recognition of two people being in a committed romantic relationship. Or, as Merriam-Webster defines it (if you don't trust my accuracy):
 
"(1) :  the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) :  the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage"
 
P.S. when you start a post with a silly definition-essay-style question like this, my first (and in this case, correct) thought is: oh boy, here comes a soapbox.

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 23, 2016 at 8:15 am

Lucy-Agnes
 
"so much more poetic than "s.ex", don't you think?"
 
The wording you use doesn't stop it from being se.x... No amount of euphamisms will.
 
I get that you have very strong beliefs about marriage and that from your point of view, it's something reserved for those who wish to start families. So by your own logic, anyone who does not want kids should never have se.x, right? It's a thing reserved for the attempt to have children within a married couple?
 
I feel we're going to clash a bunch, because I don't relate to any of that and I quite frankly find the idea of marriage and se.x being reserved for starting a family unnecessarily limiting.
 
stunt
 
"Never heard this expression before, but will be stealing it for future use, thanks."
 
You're very welcome. I didn't realise it wasn't a popular phrase. I've heard it used pretty frequently.

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MorganRF replied...
Mar. 23, 2016 at 11:53 am

"You're missing the point(and frankly, so is Morgan)"
 
Would you care to clarify as to how I am missing the point? As far as I know, I completely understood what the point was.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 23, 2016 at 2:09 pm

stuntddude:
 
Remember, I'm using the Catholic Church's definition of marriage. Just because the dictionary/society defines it a different way now isn't going to convince me their definition is right. :)
 
Jubilex:
 
Sorry if I made it sound like I was trying to stop s.ex from being s.ex. I actually believe s.ex is a very beautiful and wonderful thing. I just think that with the way the word "s.ex" is thrown around in crude ways so much these days, "the marital act" reflects the true essense of s.ex in a much better way.
 
That's pretty much my belief, although not entirely. I think (haven't talked to my mom/read up on this much, but I think) that there are times within marriage that it's perfectly permissable to have s.ex without intending to procr.eate; like, Natural Family Planning is a permissable way to regulate the number/frequency of children in a family. S.ex isn't just for making babies, it's also for bonding between the spo.uses. But yes, I do believe that a couple shouldn't be married unless they're willing to take on the responsibilities of raising a family.

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