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Admin. replied...
Mar. 25, 2016 at 5:57 am

ok so for various """personal reasons""" (aka mental illness and oppression) i am not gonna contribute to this debate myself. however i'm gonna show up just to say 'epic burn' at times most likely
 
@jubilex you have some Cool Arguments There and i would like to add on to yours if u don't mind:
 
you had statistics for how often abo.rtion vs labor/birth causes death; i'd like to add that childbirth is apparently the sixth leading cause of death for women between 20 and 34 in the usa. so that's fun. and apparently abor.tions are one of the safest procedures in medicine?? i have some info floating around in my brain that you're studing some form of medicine but i don't remember if allen told me or i just completely guessed so feel free to debunk that if it is incorrect
 
also idk if you care about this or not but i found what you said about women who had abor.tions interesting.
 
because if you have to abor.t a baby of COURSE you're going to be upset, oh my god. you clearly either made a mistake or had a horribly traumatic experience (or both) that led to you being in that situation. obviously you're not going to be singing and dancing.
 
whereas having a baby- on purpose- is literally like someone saying "i want this to happen" and then it happening. like. you asked for this and it happened obviously you're not going to be upset about it overall.
 
idk i think i'm rambling but long story short you're cool and smart and you're making good posts and i enjoy reading them.
 
-admin

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 25, 2016 at 11:19 pm

Lucy-Agnes
 
"I really admire the way you do your homework and come back with statistics. :)"
 
Thank you! :)
It definitely helps that I have easy access to reliable information.
 
"I understand it's not very common for women to die from the a.bortion, but it does happen."
 
Yes, it does. But at lower rates than women who die from pre.gnancy.
 
"...many, many, many women are scarred for life by their a.bortions."
 
I'm not suggesting that there aren't women out there who have suffered following a termination. Of course there are women out there who have. What I'm saying is that the current evidence suggests that there isn't a trend of long term mental health consequences because of it.

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 25, 2016 at 11:28 pm

Admin
 
Yes, I am a medical student. Most of the data I have is Australian. Things may differ a little in the US, but it's often relatively comparable.
 
Not much kills women between 20 and 34 years of age, so your stat sounds believable to me. I haven't specifically looked it up myself though.
 
First trimester abo.rtions are extremely safe. I already mentioned the mortality rates, but they also have low complication rates.
 
The later the termination is carried out, the more risky it is. Hence why the ones after 21 weeks have a much higher mortality (and they also have higher complication rates).
 
You make a good point about the emotional side of things. Those kinds of factors could definitely play into why there is a significant different in mental health between those who carry planned babies to term and those who have terminations.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 26, 2016 at 11:15 am

So, if the risk for mental health problems is about the same in women who've had a.bortions as for women who've had unplanned preg.nancies, and if ab.ortion definitely carries a risk of great emotional suffering, wouldn't it be safer for the woman to choose life?
 
While we're on leading causes of death, the leading cause of death overall is heart disease, with the number at 611,105. But a.bortion kills 40-50 million babies every year worldwide. Something to think about.
 
It's true any woman who finds herself tempted to have an a.bortion is probably going through a lot of emotional turmoil already, but having an a.bortion will only make it worse. You're right, though, a.bortion isn't a root problem - it's the fruit of a problem. We should work to promote a culture in which the "mistakes" which lead to a.bortion are practically nonexistent and the traumatic experiences which lead to a.bortion are very rare. We need to promote a culture of s.exual purity.
 

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 12:29 am

Lucy-Agnes
 
"...wouldn't it be safer for the woman to choose life?"
 
You're misinterpreting the data.
 
The rate of mental illness in those who have given birth to unplanned preg.nancies and in those who have had abo.rtions being similar could indicate a number of things:
 
1) Women in these two groups all have unplanned preg.nancies. That could be the risk factor for mental illness.
 
2) People with mental illness are more likely to have unplanned pre.gnancies. This could either be directly caused by the mental illness, or by other factors which contribute to both mental illness and risk of unplanned preg.nancy (e.g., low socio-economic status)
 
3) There is no increased risk of "great emotional sufferring" in someone who has a termination compared to someone who gives birth to an unplanned preg.nancy. The data shows no statistical significance.
 


"...the leading cause of death overall is heart disease, with the number at 611,105. But a.bortion kills 40-50 million babies every year worldwide."
 
Firstly, these numbers are non-comparable. You used US only number for heart disease, but a worldwide one for abor.tions. Secondly, this is where the root of this debate is. Where one draws the line for it being acceptable to ab.ort. The common pro-choice line is either sentience or independent capability of life.


 

"We need to promote a culture of s.exual purity."
 
The evidence says this doesn't work. The most effective way to reduce the rates of unplanned preg.nancy is with easy and affordable access to contr.aception + education regarding safe se.x practices.

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stuntddude replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 1:11 am

"While we're on leading causes of death, the leading cause of death overall is heart disease, with the number at 611,105."
 
611,105 of what?
 
"We need to promote a culture of s.exual purity."
 
Well, no. We already know from decades of experience that abstinence-only s.ex ed doesn't work and, if anything, does more harm than good.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 4:45 pm

Jubilex:
 
Sorry, I've always been really bad with math. I'll try to steer clear of interpreting statistics from now on.
 
Regarding numbers, sorry - I thought the number of deaths due to heart disease were world-wide, not just U.S. Even so, many more people die from a.bortion than they do from heart disease - at least one million a.bortions are performed in the United States worldwide.
 
Let's address the root of the debate! :) I understand where the pro-choicers are coming from when they say the line is sentience or viability. Even so, I disagree. Any time you kill an innocent person, it's murder, no matter what the developmental stage or health or physical ability of the person is.

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 4:58 pm

stuntddude and Jubilex:
 
I'm flabbergasted by the statement that a fostering a culture of s.exual purity "doesn't work." I encourage you to look up Dr. Janet Smith's "C.ontraception: Why Not." It's very enlightening and full of information the modern world doesn't want you to hear.

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Admin. replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 5:38 pm

Any time you kill an innocent person, it's murder, no matter what the developmental stage or health or physical ability of the person is.
 
wait does this mean you can't. uh. pleasure yourself? bc that's gonna.... that's gonna end some lives according to this. as well as any wet dreams you are likely having.
 
//runs away again to the land of Not Obsessively Checking Threads Because Anxiety Sucks

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CNBono17 replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 5:57 pm

that's kinda the reason people need to wait until marriage to have se.x, because it could lead to death. That's not the only reason, obviously, but it's a legitimate one. 

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Mar. 28, 2016 at 6:25 pm

Clearly trying to teach absti.nence is not working. I've had nurse lessons every single year in school starting in fourth grade. Fourth grade. And yet, somehow, drilling the same message in again and again and again is not working for a fair amount of people.

My solution? Quit telling people 'this is bad because it can have negative consequences'. Show them what happens, even if it scares them, because maybe they need to be shocked into it. Kind of like the texting and driving thing.

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CNBono17 replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 6:31 pm

I saw a really good PSA poster once; it showed a girl, 16ish and preg.nant, with a thought bubble above her head that said "mom's going to kill me." And then she had a sheet of paper taped to her stomach that read "mom's going to kill me." 

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Admin. replied...
Mar. 28, 2016 at 9:44 pm

I'm flabbergasted by the statement that a fostering a culture of s.exual purity "doesn't work."
 
asdf dear god someone please find some studies for this girl 
 
goo.gl/jp6qfD
goo.gl/R2GDM9
goo.gl/m28qCb
goo.gl/Ctxb4C

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 29, 2016 at 8:09 am

Lucy-Agnes
 
"Any time you kill an innocent person, it's murder, no matter what the developmental stage or health or physical ability of the person is."
 
I'm not sure how to reply to this other than to say I disagree.
 
"I'm flabbergasted by the statement that a fostering a culture of s.exual purity "doesn't work.""
 
It doesn't work because people aren't going to abstain from se.x just because you tell them to. It's one of those things that may have some theoretical viability, but practically it doesn't actually work. If people do abstain from se.xal activity, then yes it is a 100% reliable way to prevent ST.Is and pre.gnancy. But they don't. And if you only teach abs.tinence, then the lack of knowledge about contra.ception could put people at increased risk of ST.Is and preg.nancy when they do become se.xually active.
 
"I encourage you to look up Dr. Janet Smith's "C.ontraception: Why Not.""
 
This is some sort of recording of a speech right? I wish I could access a transcript because I prefer reading than listening and it's much easier to form a structured response when I can copy/paste quotes. Also the CD costs money and I'd rather not fund a source I will almost certainly disagree with.
 
I'm happy to have a discussion about the pros regarding contra.ception if you would like. It may be best for another thread if it's at risk of derailing this one.

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JubilexThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 29, 2016 at 8:27 am

CNBono17
 
"that's kinda the reason people need to wait until marriage to have se.x, because it could lead to death"
 
This reminds me of that scene in Mean Girls: "Don't have se.x, 'cause you will get preg.nant. And die."

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Lucy-AgnesThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Mar. 29, 2016 at 8:29 am

Oh, that's a good point that just telling people to be s.exually pure isn't going to work. I agree completely. Fostering a culture of purity has to be much more than just telling people what to do. It's a slow, gradual process, done largely by example - we have to show the world, not just tell the world. :)
 
Jubilex:
Yes, it is a talk. I found a website which seemed to have all her points in writing, though. I can try to find it for you if you like. I'm sure you don't have to buy the CD to get the information. :)
 
Another thread about c.ontraception sounds like a good idea - it is a pretty big topic in itself. :)

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Mar. 29, 2016 at 3:15 pm

Lucy-Agnes: What would you do to "foster a culture of purity"? Not trying to offend, just asking, because it's much, much easier said than done.
I can show the world, "Hey, look, I'm a teen girl who isn't knocked up!" and it won't change a thing, nor have any of the nurse lessons, so how would you show the world?
Again, not trying to offend. Just curious.

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stuntddude replied...
Mar. 29, 2016 at 8:32 pm

"that's kinda the reason people need to wait until marriage to have se.x, because it could lead to death."
 
Wait, this doesn't make sense. Are you saying that s.ex after marriage can't lead to death, or that it's only okay to die after you're married? To be clear, both are the wrong answer :P

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CNBono17 replied...
Mar. 29, 2016 at 8:34 pm

rephrase: it's more likely that a woman will have an abor.tion if she's not married. Saving se.x until marriage prevents that and lowers the odds. 

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CNBono17 replied...
Mar. 29, 2016 at 8:38 pm

and I hope you realize that by "death" I was referring to the child, not the mother. 

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