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Anyone else out there that cant make up their mind about religion?

Destinee replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 10:05 pm

Oops: ****** XD
 

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 10:34 pm

readaholic: Ignorance isn't bliss. Ignorance of ignorance is bliss. You stop being blissful as soon as you figure out that your knowledge has gaps. If you can sustain the 'I know everything I need to know' illusion, you can stay both ignorant and blissful.

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Izuo.This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 10:41 pm

Imagine I think you meant me.
 
"Ignorance of ignoracne is bliss."
 
That is still the same thing.   

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stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 11:09 pm

half.note:
 
"Simple: everything in our universe has a beginning and end. Therefore something outside of our universe without beginning or end (God) had to create our universe."
 
Could you walk me through what steps you took to reach that conclusion? Because it's not apparent from your premise.
 
Destinee:
 
"You can't tehcnically observe causality, representation, or any number of things."
 
But you can clearly observe their effects and infer their existence (although in truth I'm not so sure about causality), something not true of the supernatural.

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 11:47 am

SDD: 
 
"But you can clearly observe their effects & infer their existence" 
 
Well, for something to be an effect, you have to presume that causality is a real existent phenomenon. I'm not really sure what you're saying (sorry), but the point is that you can infer the supernatural's existence. 
 
Cheers. :) *

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readaholicThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 3:33 pm

Izuo: Thanks for clearing that up, I was a bit confuzzled (like, "I didn't say anyhting about ignorance.....?')

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mollybug13This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 4:16 pm

Destinee                  You have a really good point in everything you said, it really gives me something to think about. I would talk to my pastor but lately my family and I havent been able to go to church for a lot of reasons. Thanks for the reply. *

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stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 10:31 pm

Destinee:
 
I'm not going to try to find a million other ways to explain it - I've done that in enough discussions with you already.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 10:51 pm

stuntddude:
 
"Could you walk me through what steps you took to reach that conclusion? Because it's not apparent from your premise."
 
Uhmmmm. What d'ya mean exactly?
 
It’s pretty simple. God is not part of our universe. I mean, he’s still part of it, but not actually part of it.
 
Yeah, I know, that makes no sense…
I need to get more sleep or something.
 
Let me try this again…
*deep breath*
 
God transcends time and space. He is not so much of a person as he is a… force? No, that’s not the right word… John 4:24 says that “God is a Spirit”, that might work best, I don’t know.
 
Anyways, we live in a universe that has a beginning, and everything in it has a beginning. Everything from stars to caterpillars are born and die. God pervades our universe without actually being bound by time or space. He has always existed. He is eternal, all-powerful, and all-knowing. He created our universe in which there are the natural laws we know. The laws of gravity, thermodynamics, conservation of mass, etc. …
Anyways, I won’t even pretend to try and understand what God’s universe is like or even try to comprehend is power and magnitude, but I do know that he created us and everything around us.
 
Well, hopefully that sorta answered your question. :)
I really should get to bed soon before I fall asleep on my keyboard. :P
 
God bless. ♥

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 10:54 pm

Molly: 
 
Thanks :) I hope your family & you have nothing too serious/worrying going on. 
 
And don't just take my word for it. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is really something you should read up on :) Both refutations and arguments, of course. 
 
I think the best thing to do would be to research up on God in general. There are of course theistic and atheistic sources. If you aren't loath to reading, I can recommend some books (as I'm sure most people here can :) ). If you'd prefer YouTube, just holler and Collin is your man for pro-God. I honestly wouldn't recommend anti-religious vids on YouTube - they just aren't very good from what I've seen (I could be wrong?). For that you'd be better off reading books by intellectuals. (I would actually just say read, p.eriod, but I know some people are really averse to reading 300 page books :P). 
 
Good luck! *

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 10:55 pm

half.note: 
 
Sorry I know you're tired... Just answer whenever you're up for it :)
 
What do you mean by "God pervades our universe"? Are you a panentheist? :S Surely not? 
 
Thanks :) *

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stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 11:19 pm

half.note:
 
"Anyways, we live in a universe that has a beginning, and everything in it has a beginning. Everything from stars to caterpillars are born and die. God pervades our universe without actually being bound by time or space. He has always existed."
 
What I mean is, how do you logically bridge the gap between these statements? Things in our universe have beginnings and ends, therefore anything outside the universe must not? How does that work? Isn't it fallacious?
 
ht tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 11:52 pm

readholic: Oops. Sorry.
 
Izuo: It isn't quite the same thing, since as soon as I figure out I'm in the dark- that there's something I don't know- I get really irritated and/or curious until I learn it. Thus ignorance is only bliss as long as you aren't aware of your ignorance.

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mollybug13This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 29, 2013 at 5:41 pm

I dont mind reading about God, 300 page books dont intimidate me. :)  So what are the books you could recommend.

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 29, 2013 at 11:22 pm

half.note: First, I second stuntddude's question. It makes no since to say that its not okay for the universe to have existed forever (or come into existance without something before it), but God could have.
 
Second, "I do know that he created us and everything around us. "
 
Perhaps you're using a different use of the word know than I use, but you can't know anything. You can be 99.999% sure of something (proven beyond reasonable doubt), but you can't know something and certainly not something you just said you don't understand. See my point?
 
I get that you may have a strong emotional sense that God exists, and that's okay and perhaps is a good assumption, but its not knowing.

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 30, 2013 at 7:08 pm

SDD/Quantum: 
 
I think what she is saying is that one necessarily has a beginning (the universe), while the other may have a beginning (the creator of the universe). 
 
That having been said, if one is using the First Cause argument (and no, I'm not fond of it), then if the creator of this universe has a beginning, let's say X, then X needs a creator, etc etc. So God is considered the Ultimate First Cause.  *
 
Molly: 
 
Cool cool! :) Oh man.. here we go. Anybody can add to this list (please :) ).
 
So atheism and theism both rest on mindsets. The former is usually naturalistic and/or secularist, though not necessarily. Lemme start with my v. sucky list of atheistic books:
 
1. The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus
2. Anything by Nietzsche
3. The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins
4. Why I Am Not Christian by Bertrand Russell
 
There are lots of books on atheism or something that could help promote an atheistic mindset (though again, not necessarily). I'm sure other people could provide better recommendations than me. (I strongly suggest reading Nietzsche or Camus. Existentialism forms the foundation of modern atheism in the philosophical sense.) 
 
As for the list of theistic books: (Again by no means complete)
 
1. Islam Between East and West by Alija Ali Izetbegovic 
2. The Incoherence of Philosophers by Al-Ghazali/Algazel
3. Orthodoxy by GK Chesterton
4. Anything by C.S. Lewis, since you're Christian :) 
5. The Reason for God by Timothy Keller 
6. The Theology of Unity by Muhammad Abduh (a lot of these books you won't find in libraries, sorry)
7. Islam and the Destiny of Man by Gai Eaton
 
I'll probably think of more later but that's a starter's list, I think. I purposely left out The God Delusion and God is Not Great, both immensely popular, cuz I think they suck. :) 
 
Haha. Cheers. *

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stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 30, 2013 at 7:23 pm

A Brief History of Time is a good book to add to the list as well, although it should be noted it's by no means mainly about atheism/theism. It's a book about, in short, the universe. The reason I'd recommend it is that the basics of the topics it covers are really a must-know if you want to have an informed discussion about the history/nature of the universe.

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 30, 2013 at 7:40 pm

^ Agreed. Cosmos by Carl Sagan's another one.

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CollinF replied...
Aug. 30, 2013 at 10:40 pm

Molly:
 
"300 page books don't intimidate me."
 
Music to my ears. I like you already. :)
 
To pro-theist list, I'd add:
 
1) specifically of C.S. Lewis's books, Mere Christianity
 
2) Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig
 
3) Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by William Lane Craig and J.P. Moreland 
 
I'll post any more I can think of. My biggest advice for ya is to just dive in, especially to the primary sources for lots of these ideas. Faith isn't established between one set of covers. Read Pascal and Augustine and Aquinas and Descartes and Paley at least to some degree, and you'll find yourself a more well-rounded and established Christian and person in general.
 
I don't have much to add to the atheist side, as I haven't bothered to read many books promoting atheism. I tried very hard to seriously read a few, but they weren't well-written and their points weren't very coherent. I stopped the whole attempt after reading through Christopher Hitchens' (RIP) argument that the Abrahamic religions forbade the eating of pork because humans subconsciously recognized them as close evolutionary ancestors and thus felt guilty about eating them. Which was . . . I apologize to Mr. Hitchens, the most ridiculous thing ever approved by a publisher since the invention of writing.
 
I do have plenty of Nietzche and Hume downloaded on my Kindle to give the guys a second chance though. 
 
 
 
 

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 30, 2013 at 10:52 pm

"  
I think what she is saying is that one necessarily has a beginning (the universe), while the other may have a beginning (the creator of the universe).  
  "
 
I know that's what she's saying, but why does the universe necessarily have a beginning. I've seen no good evidence for that.

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