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Izuo.This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 5:28 pm

Breece:
 
"I don't think anyone would sin. Not while truly knowing how much God loves them."
 
And knowing that God is actually real. 

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stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 7:36 pm

If evidence for God ever popped up, the vast majority of atheists would have the reaction of "Oh well look at that, I guess I was wrong."

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 7:41 pm

^^Agreed.
 

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 11:01 pm

Des: Some of the biggest ethical dilemmas our society faces involve how to apply justice, and people often disagree. I had to watch an entire lecture series on it for school:
ww w.justiceharvard.or g/

If you don't want to watch all twelve one-hour episodes (they kind of made me want to kill things :) I'll provide a few examples mentioned in them-

A bunch of guys are stranded on a boat in the middle of an ocean. They are starving. One of them is much weaker than the others. The others eat him, thus allowing him to survive. They are then rescued by another boat and charged with murder. Is it just to punish them for cannibalism, given that one death lead to several lives being preserved? Lots of people come up with different answers to this.

Or Affirmative Action. Is it just to give students a disadvantage in the application process just for being white? Or would it be unjust to force minority students (who do not always have the same advantages white students do) to meet the exact same rigourous standards?

Is limiting marraige to a man and a woman just? Is denying someone an abortion just? Are mandatory minimum prison sentences just? Are our immigration policies just? We can usually say punishment for murder is just, but beyond that society (American society in particular) finds it remarkably hard to agree. Just look at the Trayvon Martin thing.


About justice superceding mercy on an eternal scale, I believe that although justice would call for everyone to separated from God (because He is perfect, we are imperfect, and the two can't mix), mercy (in the form of Christ's Atonement) allows us to return to God. The only ones who do not return to God (what others often refer to as 'Hell') are those who have willfully chosen it, knowing the full consequences of their actions, and who refused to return to their King and Father. (So they aren't being infinitely punished for finite sins, they're just choosing to make themselves miserable.)
*

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 11:03 pm

Des: Some of the biggest ethical dilemmas our society faces involve how to apply justice, and people often disagree. I had to watch an entire lecture series on it for school:
w w w .justiceharvard.o r g/
 
If you don't want to watch all twelve one-hour episodes (they kind of made me want to kill things :) I'll provide a few examples mentioned in them-
 
A bunch of guys are stranded on a boat in the middle of an ocean. They are starving. One of them is much weaker than the others. The others eat him, thus allowing him to survive. They are then rescued by another boat and charged with murder. Is it just to punish them for cannibalism, given that one death lead to several lives being preserved? Lots of people come up with different answers to this.
 
Or Affirmative Action. Is it just to give students a disadvantage in the application process just for being white? Or would it be unjust to force minority students (who do not always have the same advantages white students do) to meet the exact same rigourous standards?
 
Is limiting marraige to a man and a woman just? Is denying someone an ab.ortion just? Are mandatory minimum prison sentences just? Are our immigration policies just? We can usually say punishment for murder is just, but beyond that society (American society in particular) finds it remarkably hard to agree. Just look at the Trayvon Martin thing.
 
 
About justice superceding mercy on an eternal scale, I believe that although justice would call for everyone to separated from God (because He is perfect, we are imperfect, and the two can't mix), mercy (in the form of Christ's Atonement) allows us to return to God. The only ones who do not return to God (what others often refer to as 'He.ll') are those who have willfully chosen it, knowing the full consequences of their actions, and who refused to return to their King and Father. (So they aren't being infinitely punished for finite sins, they're just choosing to make themselves miserable.)
*

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stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 11:14 pm

"The only ones who do not return to God (what others often refer to as 'He.ll') are those who have willfully chosen it, knowing the full consequences of their actions, and who refused to return to their King and Father."

So you're saying I'm not going to hell? Cool!

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 11:29 pm

A few things:
 
“For example, eternal d.amnation as a punishment for a finite sin is something I don't think is right.”
 
*goes running and screaming*
 
*comes back*
 
Okay. Let’s get this straight: H-LL IS NOT ETERNAL! AND NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT TEACH SUCH A THING.
 
*takes deep, calming breaths*
 
I think this is the only thing that really bugs me.
And that so many Christians hold the belief of an eternal h-ll just makes me want to cry and hit someone with my Bible all at the same time.
 
I’m being dramatic, of course, but still, I really can’t say this enough: h-ll is simply the destruction of sinners. They just burn up. No eternal flames or separation from God or whatever.
 
*sigh*
 
Now I’m feeling depressed.
 
I’ll just finish up this post and then I’m done for the day…
 
"I believe that if God just freakin' showed up in front of everybody and just... 
explained everything.  I mean, like, everything.  Like if everyone in the universe could see why x is wrong and we were all just enlightened,
I don't think anyone would sin.  Not while truly knowing how much God loves them.”
 
Then why did Lucifer rebel?
He was a beautiful angel with one of the highest positions in heaven. He saw God, he knew God… but he still sinned. He still disobeyed, even with all that proof.
 
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19)
 
The fact is, if God showed up and explained everything to us I don’t think it would change anything. Maybe some people, out of fear of destruction, would put up a false front of obedience, but they wouldn’t be truly converted.
And God hasn’t left us on our own. He sent his Son to die for us so that we could be saved. We just have to work with Christ in abandoning our sin so we don’t burn with it. 
 
 
 
On the topic of this thread:
 
“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.” (James 2:13)
 
Don’t ask me what that means right now. I just saw the words “judgment” and “mercy” and decided to quote it. Maybe I’ll figure it out some other time.
 
God bless. ♥

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stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2013 at 11:41 pm

"Let’s get this straight: H-LL IS NOT ETERNAL! AND NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT TEACH SUCH A THING."
 
And let's get THIS straight: NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES THE SAME THINGS THAT YOU DO. THE END! If you see a comment about eternal da.mnation, why not just assume that it isn't talking about your beliefs? Because, it probably isn't.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 2:38 am

^ Yeah, I know. I wasn't assuming the comment was aimed at me, it's just that talk about eternal h-ll always gets me riled up. :P
 
And I want to apologize to everyone for my post. I was very hungry and tired at the time so it came across as if I was angry. Sorry for caps-locking at you guys. I wasn't mad, just grumpy...
 
Anyways, I do stand by my statements.
It was Satan's lie from the very beginning to tell Eve that she would "not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) for disobeying God. If h-ll is eternal then everyone would have eternal life; Satan would be right and God would be the liar.
 
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
 
God bless. ♥

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 7:12 am

Half.note:
 
You don't have to explain that belief of yours to me, remember? :D
 
One of my favorite articles supporting your opinion by the way: 
ht tp://jeremyandchristine.c om/articles/eternal.php
 
To Everyone:
 
Yeah, in my first post in this thread I made a point of saying that no one would sin on condition that God showed up in front of everyone and explained like, everything in the world, :P
 
But yeah, I still don't understand why God can't just tell everybody everything and just have us all go, "Oh, that makes sense.  I love you" and live happily ever after.
 
I know Half.note's response will be something along the lines of, "Our existence and Test of Faith are meant to prove to the universe that God is just and merciful... etc." But I still find it hard that God would have to think it necessary to prove anything to anybody.
 
Anyways, continue. :)

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Izuo.This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 10:26 am

Breece:
 
"But yeah, I still don't understand why God can't just tell everybody everything and just have us all go, 'oh that makes sense. I love you' and live happily ever after."
 
I'll explain from what I think. If God were to tell us everything, we might not be able to comprehend everything God has told us. Some people just won't believe what he says no matter what because of their belief or for whatever reason. Most of the humans would still sin, partly because it's already in our nature... Ever since Adam and Eve sinned. And maybe if God told us everything then some of us would just grow fearful from what we know. We humans are diverse and ridiculous.
 
SDD:
 
"If evidence for God ever popped up, the vast majority of atheists would have the reaction of 'Oh well look at that, I guess I was wrong.'"
 
I laughed at that, I think it's true. 

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Izuo.This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 10:28 am

*                       

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 11:59 am

^ We're just gonna have random posts with asterisks in them from now on, aren't we? :P LOL. XD 
 
SDD: 
 
I see. So you wouldn't agree with Rawls' theory of justice as fariness then. Interesting. :) *
 
Thread: 
 
General thought... justice is perhaps the most interesting moral principle because it can be applied both personally (justice to oneself, one's peers, etc) and socially. You can't really make love a part of every social institution, 
 
Breece: 
 
I'm gonna email you... :) *
 
Superhero: 
 
No worries, I know what it's like :'( I wo't have internet from the weekend for a few days either. So yeah. Same boat sistah. *

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 12:03 pm

DARN stupid filter.
 
Half.note: 
 
Not to like enrage you :P but I read in Matt 18:8 that h.ell is an eternal fire. Can you tell me how you'd explain that then xD Thanks! *

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 1:09 pm

Izuo:
 
Well I mean he's God and all.  Why not just be like, 
 
"POOF"
 
And then we're capable of understanding.  And when I mean everything, I really just mean everything that's necessary to understand why salvation is necessary and why we should love God, along with the fact that he definitely does exist and whatnot :P

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Izuo.This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 2:00 pm

Oh, okay well when you put it like that then... I guess. *

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 7:43 pm

Breece: Okay I emailed you for real now 
 
Imagine: Sorry I'll respond later... 
 
*

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 11:04 pm

Imagine: 
 
OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE WATCHED THOSE ALREADY :D They were great. I think I watched like 6 eps before school started... then I kinda stopped.... yeah I know it's bad :( 
 
Okay point noted. XD You're right. Justice isn't that easy to determine. However, I think some things are just more essential problems ppl have with morality, not specific to justice. Marriage, for instance, is more about legality than justice. 
 
I think that applying justice is where it gets hard - just look at the Trayvon Martin thing :P But I guess what you're saying is that a justice that is divorced from context, i.e. not applied, is not justice at all, just a word? (Or did I totally just put that into your mouth? lol) Hmm. 
 
I see what you mean about mercy and justice now. :) Thanks. *

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Aug. 28, 2013 at 11:48 pm

Des: Yeah, you put words in my mouth. What I was going for all along is that pure justice divorced from context is really simple (an eye for an eye), but justice in context is much more difficult and thus a source of human conflict.
 
You're thought was cool too, though. :)
 
 
 
Breece: But I still find it hard that God would have to think it necessary to prove anything to anybody. 
 
Quick Mormon theology lesson- the purpose of this life (and the one after) is to keep growing, learning, and progressing. This entails a good deal of self discovery/knowledge. God is omnesicent- he already knows who we are. We don't have to prove anything to him, and he doesn't really have anything to prove to us. By going through life, with all of its hardships and difficulties and doubts, we are trying to prove to ourselves how strong we really are.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 31, 2013 at 12:59 pm

Okay, finally getting to this…
 
Breece:
 
You don't have to explain that belief of yours to me, remember? :D
 
Haha, I know. I rant about this every time, don’t I?
*sheepish look*
 
And that was a great article. :)
 
So you read it, but still don’t believe in annihilationism? :P
 
My level of respect went through the roof for the writer when I saw this statement: “Scriptures must be cross-checked against the rest of the Bible for there to be some semblance of unity.”
What he is describing there is what is commonly referred to as the “proof-text method”, which I believe is the best way to study the Bible.
 
 
Destinee:
 
Not to like enrage you :P but I read in Matt 18:8 that h.ell is an eternal fire. Can you tell me how you'd explain that then xD Thanks!
 
LOL. :P
And sure, no problem.
 
“Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.” (Matthew 18:8)
 
Well first of all, we can already tell that this verse is speaking metaphorically because Jesus isn’t literally telling us to cut off our own limbs. :P
And the “everlasting fire” doesn’t necessarily mean eternal punishment, just that the destruction lasts forever.
 
It’s similar to Revelation 14:11 which says, “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
 
Both verses are speaking symbolically and they both refer to the destruction and reminder of it lasting forever, not the actual torment.
 
 
I mean, taken alone you could probably say that, but considering the vast amount of verses that teach the wicked will be destroyed it seems unlikely.
 
Read that article that Breece linked.
 
God bless. ♥

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