KatsK said they literally became the flesh and blood of Christ, I was just rolling with that.
lol, oh :P
i honestly didn't read her post, soooo
*butts head out*
Stunt: Okay, so during the transubstantiation, the priest says a blessing, right? By doing so, he acknowleges that Jesus gave his literal body and blood for his disciples, and then the magic happens. As in, the Holy Spirit descends and makes the transformation.
It's like Disney, really, only with organs and a choir. And it's not nearly as princess-oriented. Anyway, I digress.
After the process (the end of which is signalled with a ringing of a bell), the bread and wine have been transformed from ordinary elements of everyday life to Jesus awesomeness, so we can be renewed in Christ, as his apostles were, and have eternal life and all that.
So if you were to look at the wafers under a microscope after the transition would you expect to see human cell tissue? I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around that :/
I'm confused... you literally believe the wafers become Christ?
How can you eat them then? Shouldn't they be like, holy, and.. well... isn't that some form of cannibilism? Eating God? :/
I thought they stood as a representation of eating of his spirit or something... not literal like... body parts...
Is this transubstantiation? Protestants don't believe in this right?
Catholics believe in transubstantiation-that the wafers literally become the body of Christ. Protestants do not believe in transubtantiation- they believe that when Shrist said 'this is my body' he was speaking metaphorically.
^I knew AP European History would be useful some day! :)
What Imagine said, Des.
And it's not that the hosts (or communion wafers, if you'd prefer) actually become human skin. The Church would lose way more members if that happened. :) It's that during the transubstantiation, the Holy Spirit descends and enters the hosts. So, God is present in that way.
It's not irreverent. People are pretty good about giving it the respect it deserves when celebrating the Eucharist, at least from what I've seen.
I had a better reply earlier, but then my computer shut down unexpectedly.
Ohhh okay. So you don't think it becomes his FLESH, but you think it's part of God becuase the Holy Spirit imbibes it? I got it XD I thought you literally were eating flesh lol
KatsK and Dess: On transubstantiation: It is exactly what you thought it was Destinee.
Thus the name.
During communion, my pastor quotes Jesus' words, "Do this in rememberence of me" where 'this' is communion. Communion is nothing more than a traditional reminder us christians have.
KatsK: What are some scriptual proof that Mary was sinnless. And what do people have to do in order to escape the punishment of sin?
Contemplator: So, the Immaculate Co.nception was when Mary was concieve.d, right? Well, in doing so, God's grace saved her from the original sin that she would have had, as she is the new Eve. The angel Gabriel further references this by saying, "Hail, Mary, full of grace," (Luke 1:28) indicating that she's full of God's grace and, as such, hasn't sinned.
Other than this, the Bible doesn't have any explicit references that I know of, but the Catholic position is that as long as it doesn't contradict what we know from the Bible, it's fine to define the position on the matter, whatever it is.
This might make no sense whatsoever, so I apologize.
ht tp://xkcd.co m/1152/
KatsK: Mary was full of God's grace, just like every other christian in this world. As christians, we are made blameless in the eyes of the Lord and are filled with God's grace. Mary is no more special than us in that way. Therefore, we should NOT place her above or equal to Jesus, who was born perfect.
Remind me when I get back from my weekend trip to go on a litte rant about the nature of Christ...
I'll get to this sometime next week. :)
God bless. ♥
look up 1984 anti clerical and click the first video, tell me what you think.
I'm Catholic, and not nearly as knowledgable as people on here (as realized from reading five, paragraph posts) but I recently went through a Marian consecration (amazing) and I have some knowledge on the subject...
A main point they made in the consecration is that Mary is like a mediator between God and people (Known as "The Mediatrix"). Sorry for not having the verse on hand, but during the Crucifixion, when Jesus says "Woman, behold your son" (referring to John, I believe) this is used as symbolism for mary being like the mother of the church. SInce we believe Mary to be sinless (I don't believe there's any hard, cold evidence, but it makes sense to me that the woman who raised the savior of the world would have to be sinless), we believe her to be the most perfect "creature" (certainly not better than God) and, as the mother of God, the human being who has the closest relationship to and most perfect love for Jesus. By praying to her and spending time with her, she leads us closer to perfect love for Jesus.
Since Mary was human, she, in a way, can understand us more and help us on our journey, and we can trust her since we believe her to be sinless and always doing the will of God. We can give our prayers to her and she will perfect them and bring them to God (not becuase she has to, because she wants to). Mary has some influence with God (not control, not power, but motherly influence), as shown at the Wedding at Cana.
This is a very paraphrashed version of a 33 day retreat, so if some things don't make sense, sorry, and I'd love to explain more!
To sum it up, devotion to Mary is really devotion to Jesus through Mary. We do not worship Mary like we do God, but praying to her helps us become closer to Jesus. When we pray the Rosary (out of curiosity, is the Rosary primarily Catholic?), the Hail Mary's are meant as background music as we meditate the life of Christ.
Sorry...does that make sense?
I'm a 'protestan' christian. And, for the most part, do not agree with the catholic church... at all. I hope I can change your way of thinking.
I'll begin by saying that catholics are wrong about Mary. She is not the Mediator between God and us (people). The bible actually says the opposite of what you beleive here.
1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
This verse says that there is only one mediator. This mediator is Jesus, not Mary.
Secondly, Mary is sinful.
For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
The word 'all' means all people who ever lived. Jesus is the only one because he didn't sin, which the bible states clearly. But, because Jesus died on the cross for us, we can become sinless. Not because we earned it, or because we didn't sin. But because of God's mercy and grace.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
The CCC states: "Mary;s function as a mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it. No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer, but hust as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rahter gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." Not trying to say this is law because its from the CCC, it just explains better than I do.
As for the "sinnless-ness" of Mary: As we know an exception to Romans 3:23 is Jesus, or the new Adam, one could see another exception as Mary, the new Eve. Others intepret this as meaning the mass of mankind, which would not include "special cases", or meaning that everyone is prone to original sin, which Mary is, but she is preserved by God's grace. But I agree, it's hard to believe. Just like it's hard to believe the bread becomes the Body, but...that's a different topic. I obviously don't know my Bible as well as most, so no hardballs :)
^ I agree with all of that, plus I would just elaborate that because of Jesus, we don't need anything between us and god. That's the whole point of the cross. Our sin, and the barrier to god that came with that, was literally torn in two when the veil was. So yeah XD that's my input.
I meant, I agree with contemplator.
'...Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men..."
What does this passage mean when they use the word 'influence'. In what way is Mary influencing men?
As for the rest of the passage, I think this applies to all christians, not just Mary. All of my power comes from Christ alone. All of my goodness is a reflection of Christ. This is the power of God: to make a spiritually dead man alive in Him.
Equating Mary to the new Eve is both correct and incorrect. Its incorrect to think that Mary is the new Eve because she didn't sin. It is correct to think that she was made sinnless through the blood of Christ. God didn't 'preserve' her. That would mean she wasn't sinful to begin with. God completely changed her. As Jesus told Nicodemus " You must be born again inorder to see the kingdom of God." Mary was made completely new. But this isn't just Mary. This is everyone who confessed, repented and follow God.