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CollinFThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 12:26 am

Quantum:
 
Haha, no rush, Buddy. I'm actually doin Summer School too, so don't feel too dorky. You're not alone.
 
It took me probably a full year to process this stuff, so I wouldn't expect you to suddenly have a paradigm shift overnight. It's chill. Pace a little; I find that helps. :) 

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 12:46 am

I don't know how to pronounce Ecclesiates. Maybe I'll just refer to it as Eclair.

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CollinFThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 1:24 am

Des:

Eh-clee-zee-ass-tees

Eclairs aren't even that good. Cream's just . . . bleh.

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CollinFThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 1:25 am

Eh-clee-zee-a.ss-tees *Notice the need for a dot in the middle of "a.ss" there. Smh*
 
Eclairs aren't even that good. Cream's just . . . bleh.

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 1:32 am

Mm I'm having ice cream.
 
And #Thanks.

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DynamoThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 4:04 am

"There's nothing mankind truly comprehends less than the axioms [and cliches]."
 
*shakes head* I don't think I'd agree. We can comprehend a little bit more than axioms and cliches. But then, I can't actually argue that, so for the time being, I might agree with it *huge paradox, throws up hands*
 
Btw, I think I might read Ecclesiastes this summer. Not the whole NT/OT though. I guess that would be enough for a lifetime :P

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 1:11 pm

I read the first chapter of that book, Collin. You'd better have started on mine. >:(
 
Anyway. Here are my thoughts:
 
1. Glad he distinguishes b/w cheap and costly grace
 
2. Do not understand what the difference between grace at the price of discipleship is and just grace through your works is, functionally seems like the same thing. 
 
3. This makes me less irritated about the Christian concept of the sacrifice of the Lamb. 
 
4. Totally agree about the monasticism making it seem like the following of God is limited for a select few individuals. 
 
5. V interesting perspective on the Church using monasticism to justify secularization.
 
6. I've ranted about how secular the Christians I know are, right? If I haven't... *insert rant here*. Remember the book I lined to you, Islam and Secularism? I feel like it's relevant and complementary to this topic. 
 
7. Totally agree that people have to be able to be disciples in the world, not simply in their convents and whatnot. 
 
8. Am interested to see how he will deal with the disciples' lives, wherein they didn't even have jobs, to modern life, where the majority of us do need to have jobs. Where's the balance and how will he achieve it?
 
Overall, I liked it. Think it was a bit wordy at times, but I am glad that this topic is discussed. 
 
Also: Freaking cool life yo. 

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 1:21 pm

Holy h.eck Collin, I just realised: in that link I sent you for "Islam B/w East and West", if you click "Preview this book", it's not just the first 70 pages you can read... it's like, almost the entire book! Look at the chapters and just read whichever one is most interesting to you. I loved all of them. The first two you shoul definitely read, I think you';d like "The Phenomenon of Art" too, and then one chapter talks bout the Abrahamic religions..
 
Basically.. just read whatever you think you'll find interesting.

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CollinFThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 30, 2013 at 10:11 pm

Quantum:
 
Came across this Youtube video, and it seemed extremely relevant to the conversation. Not sure if you're familiar with Christopher Hitchens, but this is his brother (not sure if ya already knew that).
 
Ignore his one or two snarky comments towards atheists in general. I think it's just his personality. And also, that he forgets to mention he's not talking about confused agnostics with his derogatory statements, but rather hardline atheists like Dawkins.
 
 ht tp://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=VnIH4gomOqc

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CollinFThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 30, 2013 at 10:16 pm

Dynamo:
 
I think his main point is that the most pbvious things people often acknowledge the least. For example, we say "Treat others how you wanna be treated" so often that it seldom creates the empathy that it should. 
 
Though philosophically it might have some merit too. *Puts on glasses and begins though-pacing*
 
And please do. :) Read the Gospel of John too. Even most Christians don't read the whole Bible. Just the highlight reel, which is enough for anyone not wanting to be an expert on Jewish history. :)

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CollinFThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 31, 2013 at 12:35 am

htt p://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=DENtQ6PDW3k
 
Another good and relevant video. :) Oxford always seems to have the best debates about God. Those crazy Brits. 
 
You can watch the videos of the opposition too, but in my opinion their arguments were so weak they contributed to the power of Hitchens and McGrath's point.
 
The skeptics basically use all the oldest tricks in the book; thing I've personally heard a hundred times. "You can't PROVE anything" followed by an explanation of how Christianity is foolish because all religions are somehow simultaneously all the same yet vastly different. A notion which, incidentally, drove G.K. Chesterton to religious faith. He figured that since skeptics couldn't agree on exactly what was wrong with Christianity (the arguments are often complete opposites of each other), then they gave off the eerie sense that they were just making excuses.  

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CollinFThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 31, 2013 at 12:58 am

And here's one of my favorite pastors, Matt Chandler, briefly commenting on our limited potential, which has repurcussions for this discussion.
 
htt p://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=sGgbB5Hg18o

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 31, 2013 at 6:48 pm

CollinF: Okay...initial reactions to video 1 (Peter Hitchens):
 
-I agree that belief in God is a positive influence in society and that if people truly believed their actions had no ultimate signifigance I would not like the result. To this extent I believe in the value (if not the veracity) of religion. I personally feel like I can behave morally purely based on my own conscious, but I agree that for many people the promise of reward and the threat of punishment is very valuable. Thus, I have no reason to dislike the vast majority of religion.
 
-I agree that if it really is a 50-50 call that belief in God seems like a viable idea for living your day to day life.
 
-I personally think it is less than 50-50 call, but perhaps you could convince me otherwise. Certainly when you add in all the literal interpretation stuff, which I completely disagree with and am against because I think it is a negative influence on society (sorry half.note and DrBug and any other literal creationists)
 
-My goal is to know the truth, whether or not it is appealing. That is not for everyone, and I will not deny that religion is very functional in day to day human existence. I don't however think it has any ability to predict the nature of reality with any degree of accuracy.
 
Those are my intial reactions and I have to go right now. I'll think about it some more and watch the other videos and then post again. Very interesting though....you're certainly tempting me Collin...
 
Also, I'm not a "confused agnostic". I'm an open-minded agnostic seeking to find the truth - not what makes him happy (or right). There's a difference :)

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 31, 2013 at 6:51 pm

*sees name mentioned*
 
Huh? What? :P

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 31, 2013 at 8:50 pm

From wikipedia:
 
Peter Hitchens was once an atheist like his late brother Christopher Hitchens[, but he became a member of the Church of England and an advocate of moral virtues founded on Christian faith and institutions such as marriage"

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 31, 2013 at 9:46 pm

Video 2:
 
Once again some good points. I note that she, like me, realizes the absurdity of literal Christianity. She also appears to be quite open minded.
 
I guess one point of interest I would like to pull out of this for discussion is the value of instinct - how much should we trust it? I personally think very little (at least in regards to understanding reality).
 
Also, she talks about how we invoke "God-talk" when we reach the edges of our ability to comprehend. I would agree, but I think it is a poor argument for God. It is foolish to think that which is beyond our thought capabilities is somehow supernatural. Also, there are many examples of that which was once beyond our comprehension, that used to be explained through religion, but now can be explained effectively with science.

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 31, 2013 at 10:01 pm

I agree with most of this one (except I think the morality part is said a bit strong):
 
h ttp://ww w.youtube.co m/watch?v=rcHRRjsttOc
 
Can you watch it (if you haven't) and tell me what you think?

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 1, 2013 at 11:17 pm

(( bump ))

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 2, 2013 at 3:28 pm

If all atheists were British with a British accent, and all theists were American with American accents, then I would be an atheist.
 
I'm just saying. It should be illegal to talk on religious stuff when your accent is so amazing that it alone could convince me $_$

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 2, 2013 at 3:35 pm

Quantum: 
 
"I agree with most of this one (except I think the morality part is said a bit strong): 
  
h ttp://ww w.youtube.co m/watch?v=rcHRRjsttOc 
  
Can you watch it (if you haven't) and tell me what you think?"
 
I know you weren't addressing me, but I like this Prof,
 
In regards to thought at around 4 min, I should point out that the body + soul are both resurrected in Islam. Not that I personally do, but it is an important distinction in Xtianity and Islam, I think.

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