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Destinee replied...
Jul. 15, 2013 at 10:54 pm

From The Absurdity of Life: 
 
"Whether it comes sooner or later, the prospect of death and the threat of non-being is a terrible horror. But I met a student once who did not feel this threat. He said he had been raised on the farm and was used to seeing the animals being born and dying. Death was for him simply natural—a part of life, so to speak. I was puzzled by how different our two perspectives on death were and found it difficult to understand why he did not feel the threat of non-being. Years later, I think I found my answer in reading Sartre. Sartre observed that death is not threatening so long as we view it as the death of the other, from a third-person standpoint, so to speak. It is only when we internalize it and look at it from the first-person perspective—"my death: I am going to die"—that the threat of non-being becomes real. As Sartre points out, many people never assume this first-person perspective in the midst of life; one can even look at one's own death from the third-person standpoint, as if it were the death of another or even of an animal, as did my friend. But the true existential significance of my death can only be appreciated from the first-person perspective, as I realize that I am going to die and forever cease to exist. My life is just a momentary transition out of oblivion into oblivion."
 
Excellent observation. I need to read Sartre some time, that existentialist foo'. :)
 
Incidentally, it is interesting to note that Alija Ali Izetbegovic described nihilism as a "protest against the non-existence of God". It is not simply an unemotional affirmation that God does not exist, but it is the disappointment and despair over His non-existence. There is virtually no difference between the believer and the nihilist, except that the former has found God and the latter has not.
 
Fascinating stuff. 

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 15, 2013 at 11:01 pm

Sorry I'm just throwing my thoughts out here..
 
"To illustrate: I once read a science-fiction story in which an astronaut was marooned on a barren chunk of rock lost in outer space. He had with him two vials: one containing poison and the other a potion that would make him live forever. Realizing his predicament, he gulped down the poison. But then to his horror, he discovered he had swallowed the wrong vial—he had drunk the potion for immortality. And that meant that he was cursed to exist forever—a meaningless, unending life"
 
Has anybody here read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus? (An existentialist and the type of people Izetbegovic described as "protesting agasint God's absence".) Sisyphus was in Greek mythology. Apparently he did something bad, dunno what since I hate Greek myths LOL, and the gods condemned him to a life of eternal work - he was supposed to roll a stone up a mountain and it would always roll back down. He had to do that for all of eternity.
 
Camus was comparing that to the Absurd, the meaningless life - wherein we work, but our work reaps us no benefits. I have a sucky translation so I haven't finished reading it yet, but he is essentially answering the question (apparently) of why we ought not all commit suicide, when for an atheist existentialit, death will result in non-being, and life is struggle for no ultimate purpose.
 
Sorry. It's not really relevant..

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 15, 2013 at 11:39 pm

Sorry I've hijacked this thread.. I'm posting it as I read XD

"And it's interesting to see many thinkers betray their views when they're pushed to their logical conclusions. For example, certain feminists have raised a storm of protest over Freudian sexual psychology because it is chauvinistic and degrading to women. And some psychologists have knuckled under and revised their theories. Now this is totally inconsistent. If Freudian psychology is really true, then it doesn't matter if it's degrading to women. You can't change the truth because you don't like what it leads to. But people cannot live consistently and happily in a world where other persons are devalued. Yet if God does not exist, then nobody has any value. Only if God exists can a person consistently support women's rights. For if God does not exist, then natural selection dictates that the male of the species is the dominant and aggressive one. Women would no more have rights than a female goat or chicken have rights. In nature whatever is, is right. But who can live with such a view? Apparently not even Freudian psychologists, who betray their theories when pushed to their logical conclusions"

That reminds me of something Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad said in his Contentions (which tbh I don't get, most of the time, but this one made me laugh): "Feminism has one virtue: it shows that the West is still capable of certainty."

LOL.

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 15, 2013 at 11:41 pm

Sorry I've hijacked this thread... I just find this article to be a very succinct summary of my own thoughts. 
 
"And it's interesting to see many thinkers betray their views when they're pushed to their logical conclusions. For example, certain feminists have raised a storm of protest over Freudian s.exual psychology because it is chauvinistic and degrading to women. And some psychologists have knuckled under and revised their theories. Now this is totally inconsistent. If Freudian psychology is really true, then it doesn't matter if it's degrading to women. You can't change the truth because you don't like what it leads to. But people cannot live consistently and happily in a world where other persons are devalued. Yet if God does not exist, then nobody has any value. Only if God exists can a person consistently support women's rights. For if God does not exist, then natural selection dictates that the male of the species is the dominant and aggressive one. Women would no more have rights than a female goat or chicken have rights. In nature whatever is, is right. But who can live with such a view? Apparently not even Freudian psychologists, who betray their theories when pushed to their logical conclusions."
 
This reminds me of something Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad said in his Contentions (which, to be honest, I don't get most of the time, but I found this one to be funny): "Feminism has one virtue: it shows that the West is still capable of certainty." 

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 15, 2013 at 11:52 pm

Haha. Somebody liked my link. :)
 
I've been meaning to read Sartre and Camus too! Maybe we coulr read em together and have a thread about it to discuss? Philosophy book club!
 
And HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  "That existentialist foo'." *Wipes away tears*
 
I actually heard about Sisyphus in a sermon by Timothy Keller. *Eyes glaze over in man-crush* He's the type of precher I'd wanna be. His preaching, Chesterton's writing, and Bonhoeffer's life. I would marry myself. *.*

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 15, 2013 at 11:53 pm

Haha. Somebody liked my link. :)
 
I've been meaning to read Sartre and Camus too! Maybe we coulr read em together and have a thread about it to discuss? Philosophy book club!
 
And HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!  "That existentialist foo'." *Wipes away tears*
 
I actually heard about Sisyphus in a sermon by Timothy Keller. *Eyes glaze over in man-crush* He's the type of precher I'd wanna be. His preaching, Chesterton's writing, and Bonhoeffer's life. I would marry myself. *.*

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 16, 2013 at 12:04 am

I read one of Keller's books. I think on your recommendation. The Reason for God, right? It was good but not that great. I prefer WLC meself. 
 
And yes we should! Join GoodReads you Georgian cowboy!

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 16, 2013 at 12:24 am

Yup, I remember those days. That was before I'd read Craig though. :) Keller's better at writing about Jesus Himself. His book "King's Cross" was great. 
 
Here's a link so you can hear him in action. Sorry for the length, but he quotes people you wanna read a lot, so it should be bearable. ;)
 
You should also watch this, Quantum. Hear your first sermon as a possible seaker.
 
ht tp://www.youtube.co m/watch?v=Ts7F6dqrC-s

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 16, 2013 at 12:25 am

Haha. "Georgian Cowboy." Not sure if you remembered that my family's from Texas or that was just a Canadian slip-up. :) And GoodWhat? Is it like an online book club? That's bound to attract weirdos . . . :( 
 
I mean, no offense, not you, but like . . . 

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 16, 2013 at 12:35 am

Half an hour... ugh ugh ugh. I'll do it if you actually read The Theology of Unity, Goddarnit! :) Nah but it looks like it'll be good. I can't wait till you read Islam Between East and West. I am actually so excited. I just need to send it O_O Can you read the first 70 pages online??? :D books.google.ca/books/about/Islam_Between_East_and_West.html?id=pc55-UW1guAC if you do I'll read the Gospel of John tomorrow... :D 
 
And srsly? I could've sworn you lived in Georgia.. I did mail you, after all. Texas, Georgia, whatever. They're all the same. 


And goodreads.c om It's a place to rate/review books! I doubt weirdos go to Goodreads. There are weirdos on the TI Chat thouh. Seriously. :/

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 17, 2013 at 6:00 pm

Quantum:
 
Sorry for the delay here. I had a random ADD day yesterday. Aaaanyways.
 
Regarding the Stephen Hawking quote: Does that make us special? Yes. Does it also make us miserable beyond belief? Also yes. There's no doubting that we're special, but the sheer . . . pointlessness of it all just makes that even worse than if we'd stayed monkeys. Now we know how cold and ruthless reality is.
 
Regarding your question: Perhaps He is. But that's not the point of the article. Craig isn't arguing that atheism itself is a lie, but that their claim to live ultimately meaningful lives is. This claim is not 50/50 like the possibility of God's existence: it seems logically untenable, even to those who hold it when pressed hard enough.
 
 
And on a side note, I claim to know God, not to know there is a God. To know that something "is" is based on our highly limited knowledge filtered through our often irrational minds. To know someone as a person is a different kind of knowledge.
 
It seems to me that billions upon billions of people very well could be wrong about knowing something, for instance "the world is flat," but unlikely that they would all be able to be so self-deluded as to claim knowing someone in a kind of religious skitzophrenia. They may misinterpret what that Being says, but most of humanity seems to think He's out there.                                

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 17, 2013 at 6:14 pm

Destinee:
 
I will, I PROMISE!! :) It's just that Summer school literally has me reading like 5 books simultaneously right now. :( I'll read it before school starts back. Cross my heart, hope to die (Hmm, never noticed how creepy that is until typing it out . . .).
 
And hmmm. John, huh? You drive a hard bargain, my friend. Throw in the first chapter of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship and you've got yourself a deal, my Sister Destinee (Get it? Cause you converted?) I'll get started on those 70 pages. You better hurry though. You've only got 6 hours ET to read John, pray for salvation, and be baptized. *clap, clap*
 
And I think you might like WLC even more than I do. :) I'm too much of an Anglophile to put him on my top-5 list. 
 
And hahaha. I do live in Florida. My family moved here from Texas right before I was born, so we're all still a little cowboyish at heart. :) I was just pointing out that a lot of foreigners think cowboys live in the South, but they're actually a Western thing. If someone was seen wearin a ten-gallon hat in Georgia, people would just laugh and somebody'd probably spit tobacco in it.
 
And *Shrug* Just seems like most book clubs I've witnessed consist of like divorced or permanently-single middle-aged women. Tough crowd. Though my Spanish teacher, one of my favorite people of all time, neve got married, and she seems happy as can be. She's a little crazy though. Probably from teaching for like 50+ years. O.o
 
And I avoid the TI chat. I can chat IRL. I can't discuss philosophy IRL. You should've seen the fiasco when I told a girl at my school I didn't think the Big Bang was necessarily incompatible with the central tenets of Christianity. *Closes eyes and sighs*

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 17, 2013 at 6:16 pm

And please don't go bankrupt trying to convert me, Destinee. If those books cost a fortune to buy/ship I can just try hunting em down in a library. If you spend too much to mail the books, then I'll feel obligated to convert . . . and that'd ruin the fun. :p

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 17, 2013 at 6:35 pm

ht tp://books.google.c om/books?id=NamwoIOJnJkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+cost+of+discipleship&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PxvnUb_aBoXO9QTjsIDYDw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA

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DynamoThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 17, 2013 at 8:37 pm

Collin: one of the facts I find interesting is that you believe in 50/50 % probablity of God, and also you're not YEC (Thanks God). Thats does seem like a bunch unlike other Christians :D I read Times from Ecclessiastes onc, and while it was good, it really pointed to simple, everyday facts which we've forgotten. I guess there's a spiritual side of you as well, that might do away with a bit of Eastern Philosophy :D

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 17, 2013 at 9:12 pm

Destinee:
 
I meant I live in Georgia. I have no friggin idea why I said Florida . . . o.O

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Destinee replied...
Jul. 17, 2013 at 11:26 pm

Collin: 
 
*Raises eyebrow* School starts in September. You better start before August my friend. Otherwise this Canadian is gunn' get mad >:( Jokes. :) Take your time.
 
And okay okayyy. I'll do it tomorrow as I just saw your reply. Tell me when you finish. I read the first page of the Bon-h.o-effer's book (hehehehehehe) and I already agree with it wholeheartedly. I'm gonna start with Part 1 though. Introductions and Prefaces are so blehhh
 
Oh right I see. 
 
And seriously? Wouldn't the Big Bang make people more inclined to believe in a Creator? I would have imagined at any rate. As for philosophy IRL, yeah debating IRL is so much harder... if you can't discuss philosophy though, you might want to reconsider becoming a preacher? Maybe? *hopeful smile*
 
As for bankruptcy, lol I won't XD It's just more of a hassle than anything. Going all the way to UPS.. (which is a 15 min walk :P ) I'm just lazy. but I will soon. Maybe this weekend. Yeah. :/ Maybe... Tell me how you like Islam B/w East and West first. If you don't like it I won't send it (since I lvoe it :P). 
 
Cheers.

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 12:09 am

Dynamo:
 
Glad ya think I'm a standup guy. :) Guess I can't argue with that.
 
As for Ecclesiastes telling us what we already know . . .
 
"There's nothing mankind truly comprehends less than the axioms [and cliches].

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 12:10 am

Collin: Sorry for not replying yet. I've been really busy doing research and playing basketball with other nerds who go back to school over the summer so I haven't had a chance to really think this stuff through yet. I promise I'll get back to you in the next couple days though.

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CollinF replied...
Jul. 18, 2013 at 12:24 am

Dynamo: 
 
That was a Chesterton quote there, which I neglected to mention
 

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