Facebook Activity



Teen Ink on Twitter

Home > Forums > Teen Ink Forums > Philosophy and Thought > Objectivity of Beauty

Teen Ink Forums

Lively discussions with other teens
   
Next thread » « Previous thread

Objectivity of Beauty

stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 12, 2013 at 8:27 am

Because it says so right here in this book! See?
 
(Carry on and pretend this post doesn't exist)

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
replied...
Jul. 12, 2013 at 11:56 am

stuntddude:
"You're right, it wasn't God's will, it was only what otherwise morally sensible people were utterly convinced was God's will."
And H.itler, the N.azis, and all the Germans were convinced that they were doing what was best for the human race by murdering thousands of J.ews.
The fact is, humans (whether religious or secular) are prone to making morally questionable decisions.
I'd rather that people actually followed the Bible because the Bible has clear-cut principles that remain static, while societies' morals tend to change. Trust me, if everyone actually followed God's Word the world would be a much better place.
 
Quantum:

"Why do (many) theists pin everything good that happens on God, but everything bad that happens on humanity?"
Because "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and the source of all good in the unviverse.
God originally created mankind to be perfect and sinless, but Adam and Eve disobeyed God and brought sin into the world. The only reason bad things happen are because of the degradation of sin. And since humans have a propensity to sin, most of the evil in this world is a result of us sinning.
 
God bless. ♥

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
replied...
Jul. 12, 2013 at 11:59 am

^ Okay, I'm sure it's obvious that that was from me (half.note) but I just thought I'd let you know all the same.
My computer hates me right now and is messing up my log-in. :/
*walks away muttering about the evils of technology*

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
Destinee replied...
Jul. 12, 2013 at 12:10 pm

Quantum: 
 
People believing in any ideal strongly will obviously cause conflict. It need not be religious. If I strongly believe that bright yellow is the best colour (it is btw) that will cause conflict with someone who prefers red (an imbecile if I ever saw one ;) ). Ideals on a larger scale, e.g. nationalism, paired with practical necessities, e.g. oil, cause a lot of worse conflict than my colour situation ever will. And superstition is a normal human belief. 
 
I also hold beef with the notion of people 
 
"Oh...and before Destinee says: free will is a human perception you're putting aside: 
  
a) I don't use it in my day to day life to justify anything - I operate as if I free will 
b) I don't have a 100% faith that I'm right about us not having free will because (like God) it is impossible to know (for now anyway)"
 
LOL you know me too well.
 
b) You also don't have 100% faith that God doesn't exist, but you operate on the notion that He doesn't. :/ 
 
Sorry I know you didn't want to bring God into this, so you can ignore this if you'd like.
 
Cheers.

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
Destinee replied...
Jul. 12, 2013 at 12:12 pm

"Also, this made me think of something else. Why do (many) theists pin everything good that happens on God, but everything bad that happens on humanity?"
 
Good and bad are a matter of perception. So I'm not sure what you mean here... 

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
Destinee replied...
Jul. 12, 2013 at 12:31 pm

Oh dear I didn't finish my sentence.. I'll do it later. lol.

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 12, 2013 at 8:51 pm

half.note:
 
Well, first off, not ever German at the time agreed with what the Na.zi party was doing, or even a majority. Secondly, the Na.zis had the full support of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
It doesn't count for much that the bible has clear-cut and static principles if those principles are bad ones to begin with.
 
And, I totally called it -- "Because it says right here in this book that he's good!" was the answer after all. Am I good or what?
 
Destinee:
 
"I also hold beef with the notion of people"
 
Wow, way to be anti-people. As a person, I'm very offended by this :P

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 13, 2013 at 2:28 am

stuntddude:
 
Well, first off, not ever German at the time agreed with what the Na.zi party was doing, or even a majority.
Still, thousands did. And it doesn’t invalidate my point: the morals of secularists can be just as questionable as those who are religious.
 
Secondly, the Na.zis had the full support of the Roman Catholic Church.
What? Where did you get that idea?
Sure, they never stepped in to stop what was happening, but they definitely didn’t support it.
In fact, Catholics were among the Christians who were persecuted by the N.azis (source: ht tp://bit.ly/12n53cO).
Also, it may be interesting to note that Vatican held a “Day of Pardon” on March 12, 2000 in which Pope John Paul II officially apologized for the inactivity and silence of many Catholics during the Holocaust (source: ht tp://bit.ly/12n4Gii)  (<--- hehe, the things you learn in Catholic school… XD)
Anyways, besides all that, it’s the Catholic Church we’re talking about, not all Christians. In fact, I’m a Protestant, which means I “protest” the Catholic Church. I don’t agree with most of what they say or do. I wouldn’t look to them for the standard of Christianity. They are more interested in the doctrine of men than following the Bible.
 
It doesn't count for much that the bible has clear-cut and static principles if those principles are bad ones to begin with.
This is a debate big enough in and of itself to need its own thread, but I strongly disagree.
I know so many people who have been completely changed around because they began to follow the principles in the Bible. Those who truly study and follow there Bible (which is an unfortunately small amount of Christians) are converted by it to be the most loving and kind people I know.
Each word of the Bible is written with the deepest insight into humanity and the loving measures taken by God to bring us back to Him.
 
And, I totally called it -- "Because it says right here in this book that he's good!" was the answer after all. Am I good or what?
I thought you said to ignore that post. ;)
But seriously, you’re being a little disrespectful.
(Ugh, sorry, I feel like ranting, so I apologize for what is to follow….)
The Bible is more than just a book. I know it may not seem that way to you, but I hope you can understand (or at least respect) how important it is to me.
I’m not suggesting that you can’t criticize it or question my beliefs, but this statement (for some reason) just seemed to cross the line.
I’ll probably wake up tomorrow and realize I was being silly about this, but oh well….
(You can probably just ignore this little rant.)
 
God bless. ♥

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 13, 2013 at 4:35 am

"And it doesn’t invalidate my point: the morals of secularists can be just as questionable as those who are religious."
 
Wait, what? Na.zi Germany was not secularist. The vast majority of the soldiers were Christian, many had messages about God embroidered on their uniforms, Hi.tler himself was strictly a Christian.
 
As for the source you gave, um, yeah, big surprise, Hi.tler killed the people who opposed him politically, which was bound to have included some religious factions. What do you even mean to show with this?
 
"Also, it may be interesting to note that Vatican held a “Day of Pardon” on March 12, 2000"
 
About 65 years too late. I'm not impressed by an apology that comes well after most holo.caust survivors are long dead and gone. And even then, a "day of pardon"? Really? What, you're pardoning your own organisation? John Paull II pls, that's not how pardons work.
 
"Anyways, besides all that, it’s the Catholic Church we’re talking about, not all Christians. In fact, I’m a Protestant"
 
As were most Germans at the time, according to the link you gave.
 
"I wouldn’t look to them for the standard of Christianity."
 
Have fun making a case for that, considering they're easily the largest sect. They are, by definition, standard Christians.
 
"I know so many people who have been completely changed around because they began to follow the principles in the Bible."
 
And despite being largely antisocial, I still manage to see people's lives improve all the time from leaving religion behind them and moving forward. In any case, you're Christian yourself, you'll see adherence to Christian doctrine as a positive thing regardless of whether or not it actually is (and with the lovely and omnipresent No True Scotsman fallacy, with which you are walking a thin line in this post already, you can conveniently exclude those examples that clearly are negative).
 
"Each word of the Bible is written with the deepest insight into humanity and the loving measures taken by God to bring us back to Him."
 
Funny how that works out so that so many people become atheists as a direct result of actually reading the bible.
 
"But seriously, you’re being a little disrespectful."
 
I'm giving exactly as much respect as is due. Interpret that how you will.
 
"I’m not suggesting that you can’t criticize it or question my beliefs, but this statement (for some reason) just seemed to cross the line."
 
I only mean it as a straightforward statement of truth.

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
half.note replied...
Jul. 14, 2013 at 1:59 am

stuntddude:
 
Okay. I put a lot of thought and prayer into this reply, and hopefully I can explain what I want to say well enough…
 
"Na.zi Germany was not secularist. The vast majority of the soldiers were Christian, many had messages about God embroidered on their uniforms, Hi.tler himself was strictly a Christian."
I did a lot of research on this and it’s still a little unclear. Yes, many N.azis were Christian (who wasn’t back then?), but they weren’t necessarily following Christian principles.
As for H.itler….
Ay ay ay. *rubs forehead with hand* That guy was a mass of contradictions.
I finally found an article that explained it perfectly:  ht tp://bit.ly/13f5ipd
It’s hard to determine whether or not he was Christian (though he probably wasn’t atheist, more likely a theist or deist), but I can tell you with certainty that he was not following Christian or Biblical principles.
 
As for the source you gave, um, yeah, big surprise, Hi.tler killed the people who opposed him politically, which was bound to have included some religious factions. What do you even mean to show with this?
I was just showing that H.itler was not in league with the Catholic Church or anything. He acted pretty much on his own and even persecuted and killed the people you claimed he had the support of.
 
About 65 years too late. I'm not impressed by an apology that comes well after most holo.caust survivors are long dead and gone. And even then, a "day of pardon"? Really? What, you're pardoning your own organisation? John Paull II pls, that's not how pardons work.
I think the idea was just to acknowledge that the Catholic Church should have done more to prevent the h.olocaust, and to show that they didn’t support its occurrence.
And I’m not 100% positive, but I think that the Day of Pardon was to ask for forgiveness for the Church and their past wrongs (allowing the h.olocaust was one among many), not to forgive the Church for it.
 
"I wouldn’t look to them for the standard of Christianity."
Have fun making a case for that, considering they're easily the largest sect. They are, by definition, standard Christians.
Okay, here’s my case:
The term “Christian” literally means “follower of Christ.” Unfortunately, most Catholics (and even Protestants) are only nominal Christians rather than true Christians. It is a sad fact that most Christians don’t read their Bible or really have a true love for God. As a result, not every “Christian” will be a “follower of Christ.”
Also, Catholicism is based on Paganism, not the Bible (it’s “Paganism in a Christian garb”, so to speak).
 
I still manage to see people's lives improve all the time from leaving religion behind them and moving forward. In any case, you're Christian yourself, you'll see adherence to Christian doctrine as a positive thing regardless of whether or not it actually is…
Ah well, it’s difficult to argue this one because, you’re right, I am Christian so I have a different view of what it means for “people’s lives [to] improve.”
 
Funny how that works out so that so many people become atheists as a direct result of actually reading the bible.
That’s because they read it only to find fault with it. Or they’ve been taught un-Biblical ideas that they discover don’t agree with the Bible and assume the Bible is the one that’s incorrect.
 
I'm giving exactly as much respect as is due. Interpret that how you will.
I’m going to interpret that to mean that you don’t hold much respect for Christianity…
But I do ask that you at least show respect for me and my beliefs. I have spent a lot of time studying these things out, and I hope you can at least respect me for that even if you don’t agree with my conclusions.
 
I only mean it as a straightforward statement of truth.
And I appreciate your honesty, but your comment came across as more of a mockery rather than simply dealing with my ideas.
Anyways, I was probably just being oversensitive… I wasn’t offended, but I just thought I should say something.
 
God bless, mon ami. ♥

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 14, 2013 at 2:05 am

^ Don't know why it does that to my screen name and display pic.... Kind of annoying.... :P

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
Destinee replied...
Jul. 14, 2013 at 2:28 am

I shouldn't say this at it isn't productive but:
 
"And despite being largely antisocial, I still manage to see people's lives improve all the time from leaving religion behind them and moving forward."
 
LOL. You're a riot SDD :)

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
PotatoeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 14, 2013 at 2:43 am

oh noes i seez wallz uv postz imma leev nao.
 
//rolls away/

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 14, 2013 at 5:48 am

I'm a one-dude riot. In my room. At 4:40 in the morning. Going against the system! Yeah!

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
stuntddudeThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 14, 2013 at 6:04 am

"The term “Christian” literally means “follower of Christ.”"
 
I've compiled a list of some of the reputable and generally accepted definitions of the word "Christian":
 
- A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
- one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ
- One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
- a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
- a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
 
Just so we're clear.
 
"Unfortunately, most Catholics (and even Protestants) are only nominal Christians rather than true Christians."
 
I think it's gotten to the point where I really do have to call you out on this.
 
ht tps://yourlogicalfallacyis.co m/no-true-scotsman
 
"It is a sad fact that most Christians don’t read their Bible or really have a true love for God."
 
And a very interesting fact that atheists know more about the bible on average than Christians do.
 
"Also, Catholicism is based on Paganism, not the Bible"
 
[citation needed]
 
"That’s because they read it only to find fault with it."
 
I'm not talking about those who are already atheists, I'm talking about professing Christians who would be reading the bible to do exactly the opposite.
 
"But I do ask that you at least show respect for me and my beliefs."
 
I certainly respect you, I've got plenty of reason to, but I have little to no reason to respect your beliefs on this subject.

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 14, 2013 at 12:28 pm

stuntddude:
 
I've compiled a list of some of the reputable and generally accepted definitions of the word "Christian”…
And I don’t disagree with any of those definitions, I’m just saying that there can be a lot of people out there who profess to be Christian, but don’t really read their Bible or have a personal relationship with God.
 
I think it's gotten to the point where I really do have to call you out on this.
ht tps://yourlogicalfallacyis.co m/no-true-scotsman
I’m sorry if it seems that way, but I’m honestly not trying to “shift the goalposts”. I merely presented a point, you questioned me on it, and I provided elaboration. You’ll just have to trust me on it when I say that everything I’m telling you is things I already believed and am only presenting now. I have not contradicted myself or tried to cop-out by making something up just so I seem consistent.
(And that’s a really cool website, by the way. XD)
 
And a very interesting fact that atheists know more about the bible on average than Christians do.
Exactly my point. You can’t look to all Christians for the standard of Christianity because they don’t always know what true Christianity is even about. Catholics can be among the worst. I go to a Catholic school and many of my classmates profess to be Christian yet don’t even go to church regularly or know the simplest things about the Bible. It’s sad, but true....
 
“ "Also, Catholicism is based on Paganism, not the Bible"
[citation needed]
Sure, no problem. This is a common Adventist belief, so just give me a minute…
ht tp://amazingdiscoveries.o rg/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism
 
I'm not talking about those who are already atheists, I'm talking about professing Christians who would be reading the bible to do exactly the opposite.
I understand that you’re talking about Christians, not atheists. But still, usually when Christians decide one day to read the Bible it’s because they want to try and find fault with it—those who end up becoming atheists anyway. They are the type of Christians who never read it regularly and may not even go to church regularly. As a result, their idea of what Christianity is and what the Bible teaches is not the reality, so when they finally read the Bible they can become discouraged.
Anyways, we can’t know for sure why people do what they do, but I do know that I am currently reading through my Bible so if I became an atheist as a result you have my permission to say “I told you so.” :P
 
I certainly respect you, I've got plenty of reason to, but I have little to no reason to respect your beliefs on this subject.
Fair enough.
 
God bless. ♥

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread
half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Jul. 16, 2013 at 9:52 am

*bump* for stuntddude
 
You were gone too long, man, and it got moved to the second page. XD
 
Anyways, you don't have to reply if you don't want to. I'm thinking about ending this discussion soon anyways, since we're not really getting anywhere....
Ah well, do what you will.
 
God bless. ♥

Reply to this Thread Post a new Thread

Launch Teen Ink Chat
Site Feedback