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A good person could not go to heaven and be happy

human6 posted this thread...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 12:50 am

If you can enjoy yourself while millions burn beneath you your not a good person.

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Destinee replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 1:01 am

There are thousands dying, from hunger and other preventable causes right now. Do you go to sleep at night with that knowledge? 

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Jade.I.AmThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 6:13 am

This is something I've struggled with quite frequently, actually, since my moms half of the family is atheist. I'd like to know others' view on this topic! Good thread, human.

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 8:38 am

Yeah. I agree. Even if I could be convinced to believe in God, I definitely won't believe in Hell. I wouldn't want to worship a God who condemns people to eternal pain and suffering.

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Quantum1.0This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 8:40 am

so my first post got stuck in the filters for h.ell, so it might come out eventually, but anyway I agree with human6. Even if I came to believe in God I won't believe in H.ell. If a god exists who sends people to eternal pain and suffering I have no desire to worship him. 

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Apr. 18, 2013 at 8:54 am

that is why my view of he.ll is different.
 
rev. 22:12-17
 
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
 
notice outside the gates, says nothing about burning forever. i believe that he.ll is just complete seperation from Yahweh for eternity, because complete sepration from Yahweh is torture in itself. which means no light, always death, and torture. i believe the fire is figurative for total seperation from Yahweh.
 
Shalom Alechiem and Barucha!!!:)

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Destinee replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 10:00 am

If H.itler was reborn, would you give him money, food, clothing, a beautiful wife, and beautiful children on a silver platter? Or would you put him to rot in a jail somewhere? 
 
If a tyrant had the realisation the full impact of his horrible actions, if a r.apist truly understood the extent of the pain he'd caused, do you think they would be happy? Or would they nearly die of guilt? Ask a genuinely repentant sinner if he finds it easy to be happy with the knowledge of pain and suffering he has caused.
 
H.ell is an inevitability. It is the realisation for humans, in the clarity of the afterlife, of all the sins that we have committed and the extent of them, and that we cannot escape the consequences, and that now it is too late. Because had we continued to live on Earth, we would continue to commit them wilfully and perhaps even rejoice in them -- perhaps we'll try to pass laws instating our sin, perhaps we'll try to enforce it upon others, perhaps we'll teach our children sin and ruin their lives -- and that is why H.ell exists. 
 
Imagine all your greatest mistakes, and imagine realising that you wasted your chance to ever repent. Imagine one day hurting your mother's feelings, and the next day she's dead and you never managed to apologise. That feeling of intense regret, multiply it by infinity. Imagine your greatest attachment, imagine that you loved music more than God, imagine that you stopped going to church because you wanted to go to a rock concert, imagine that you used to listen to music 24/7 and never once opened God's sacred Word -- and imagine waking up and realising that this very music that you spent so much time on has absolutely no power in the afterlife. 
 
Has anyone here been through a heartbreak? How did it feel to be so attached to someone, and then losing them? To pin your hopes and dreams on someone and then have them leave? You will feel that pain for every single material thing in the afterlife. Every single one. And it will be painful for people whose entire lives revolved around material attachments, and who persistently chose the material over the spiritual. 
 
Don't assume all atheists are going to H.ell. Or that all so-called "religious" people are going to Heaven. Both are complex. There is a reason that God judges in the afterlife, not us. Humans can't even get finite court cases right -- you really think God wants us to judge people's infinite lives? :)

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DynamoThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 10:55 am

He.ll is the painful realization of one's failure as a man. (Iqbal)

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ContemplatorThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 12:18 pm

No person goes to heaven because he/she is good. That is a common misconception. They go to heaven because they realized that they are living in sin and so they repent and ask God to forgive them. 
 
No ammount of good can bring you to heaven. 
 
WIth that said, it isn't so much as a "I bought a ticket to heaven and you didn't" but more of a " I jumped off the train tracks but you didn't :(". 
 
Let's take you for an example. How many times have people tried to convert you into christianity? Are we suppose to feel obligated to go to h*ll because you wouldn't listen to us?

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Jade.I.AmThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 12:18 pm

So I guess this is my answer, for now. Because I believe in the inherent Goodness of God, and if He says I will not suffer, I must believe that is His will, and His will is good :)
 
First, you have to realize that God pursues us endlessly, and wants no one to perish--he is relentless. 
 
"As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I (God) look after my sheep (humans). I will rescue them from all the places were they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness." Ezekiel 34:12.
 
The first recollection we have of God needing to pursue us is in the Garden, when Adam and Eve have 1st sinned. "Where are you?" God says. Did He, the All-knowing God, not know where they were? Of course He did. He is saying, "What have you done, where are you're heads? I am looking for you, come back to me!"
 
"While you were doing all these things, declares the Lord, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer." Jeremiah 7:13. 
 
So then, it is really not a question of "How can you be a good person and be happy in Heaven while others suffer in He.ll?"
 
It is a question of: "How can you reject God and expect to receive a reward in Heaven?" 
 
If the very definition of He.ll is separation from God for eternity, and all Good that is inherent with God (no suffering, in this case), and you REJECT that...how is it then LOGICAL at all, to say, "Well, give me Heaven but leave God out of it." 
 
He.ll is separation from God. If you go to He.ll, you got what you wanted--you just don't like it. God warned you, He pursued you, and you rejected Him. You want the rewards of Heaven, but those rewards are being in the presence of The Almighty, where in Him all suffering is erased. You are wishing for a reality that does not exist--Heaven without God or He.ll with God. That is illogical.
 
So how, then, is it fair to say "You accepted God and are now in Heaven. I rejected God and am now in He.ll. How can you be happy? I mean, I chose this path, and you chose yours--how dare you be happy?"
 
I choose happiness when I choose God. I hope someday you will do the same. It is very clear in the Bible that redemption is the responsibility of every individual person. I will not feel like a bad person for choosing what is right, and being happy with that decision. 
 
"But God will not be mocked for whatsoever a mall shall sow that shall he reap: Be not deceived, God is no mocked: for whatevsoever man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galations
 
1 Co 3:14-15 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
 
Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
 
This is why I choose to trust God's will:
 
Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 
 
Even if we cannot see God's plan, and why it is GOOD, then maybe it is because we have a lowly human perspective on things. When we get to heaven, our perspective is God's perspective. Our eyes are opened, and there is no more suffering because we are in the presence of the Lord.
 
Sorry for the long post! I hope you read it all. Feel free to comment on anything I left unclear :)

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 4:55 pm

*sigh*

I'm going to say this again:

HELL IS NOT ETERNAL!!!

I don't have time to explain right now, but I have tomorrow off school so hopefully I'll be able to then.

God bless. <3

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 4:56 pm

*sigh*
 
I'm going to say this again:
 
H-LL IS NOT ETERNAL!!!
 
I don't have time to explain right now, but I have tomorrow off school so hopefully I'll be able to then.
 
God bless. <3

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Jade.I.AmThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 5:09 pm

That's not a proven fact, half note. And it's irrelevant anyway.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 6:03 pm

Jade:
 
What do you consider a proven fact?
 
Anyways, I've shown you lots of verses in the past that support it.
 
As well, it is relevant because if the wicked are completely destroyed instead of being tortured for eternity, then it proves God's justice in letting the righteous live for ever in heaven.
 
I'll get to this when I can.
 
God bless. <3

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 7:52 pm

I think it's relevant, because if he.ll is not eternal (or sinners just stay dead) then it completely eliminates the moral quandry human is describing. Also, the existance of h.ell itself cannot be conclusively proven or disproven.
 
 
 
In my opinion, h.ell is nothing more than separating oneself from God. The separation is voluntary and chosen by the sinners themselves.
 
Is it sad that they have chosen that path? Yes. Debilitatingly so for all who have not? I don't think so. Knowledge of and slight sorrow for sin does not preclude happiness- otherwise every person in the world would be permanently  and incurably depressed.

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human6 replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 10:25 pm

Destinee: You had me until you started talking about god. 
 
 
 
If you had said, imagine you loved rock more than your fellow man I would have agreed.
 
 
 
 
Honestly I find a Christmas Carol more moral than the entire bible.

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Destinee replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 10:27 pm

Ian: 
 
Really? :') Yay!
 
But seriously, take out the God portion, and it's just as relevant. 
 
BTW answer my question on Quantum's "Why should I believe" thread! Which drugs do you do?

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human6 replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 11:01 pm

pot and b eer
 
 
 
I think I'm dehydrated, right now. Or taking my morning meds at 6pm had a weird affect on me. Either way I feel really weird. 

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Destinee replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 11:03 pm

Ah right. I don't think weed is all that bad, besides, you know, being illegal, and I think alcohol is a very bad drug, but phew. I thought you were gonna say something idiotic like h.eroin. :) But lay off okay? Gently, gently.
 
Oh yes you would be on prescription pills too eh? 

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human6 replied...
Apr. 18, 2013 at 11:19 pm

Yea, I take a ADHD, thiroid and anger drugs. I feel weird, allot like being high on pot. I haven't smoked in a while maybe I'm just having psych withdrawl (my first time was a few weeks ago, and I started craving it the last few days, I'm worried I got some bad sh it) I've been drinking for like 2 years. 

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