you're ignoring all my evolution points, and making a rant about how i'm not giving you any argument,i replied at the mainpoints of your arguments several times, and you are ignoring them, take a moment and actually look at my side before you reply, whoever has an ear let him hear...
Shalom Alechiem and Barucha!
Without looking it up, I would have to say that although we inherited the tendency to sin from Adam and Eve, there is still a choice involved. By eating from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve were awakened to the fact that they COULD sin. And because we are not perfect like God, we are DRAWN towards sin. This does not mean that at birth we are already sinners, but no man can escape the temptation of evil, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
There was a choice BEFORE eating the fruit, though. Man always had the option of choosing evil, otherwise, how could Eve decided to take the fruit? When sin "entered" the world, it was just the first sin. The Bible is saying that after that, a law was needed to judge that sin. We see that after the first sin there was the first sacrifice of an animal—the skins needed to make clothes for Adam and Eve. All men sin because it is their nature—only a perfect God can be in human form and not sin..., this is the danger of having an earthly body.
How is it moral that Jesus needed to die on the cross? I give you this question — how is right for him NOT to die on the cross? How would God be a just God if he created us with free will, a sinful nature, and no way out but death? Remember that Christs crucifixion was a choice he made. He became less than God (human) so that he could save us. He did "not regard equality with God something to be grasped". When he is being tempted he tells the dev.il that although he could call a thousand angels to save him, he chose not to because he was under the law, which tells us not to test The Lord. THIS IS THE WAY IT HAD TO BE. Only a perfect sacrifice could pay the death price on our heads.
Read Hebrew 2:9. Sorry if I got off on a tangent, there's just a lot of scripture that needs to be priced together and I don't have the time.
Basically God was like, "oh s---, now all my humans are gonna die. Well, that was pointless! Hey Jesus, would you mind saving them?"
Jesus: "sure. I know that I will suffer bodily harm, but I will rise again, defeat my enemy, and know that the sufferings of the flesh are necessary to be in eternal relationship with my humans— which is what I created them for, right?"
God: "yeah, good plan! S this is what we're gonna do...."
One more thing: what do you mean by "wouldn't the just thing to happen would be for everyone to bear their own responsibility for our sins?"
I honestly don't know what you're referring to—whether humans should be responsible for their sins as opposed to Adam causing sin to enter the world, or humans should be responsible for themselves rather than Jesus paying the price?
Since you're not replying (I'm not blaming you, I'm just bored and restless) I want to address some of your questions directly.
"Why is it moral that one man's sin taints everyone else's souls?"
I don't think this is put into the right perspective. It would be one thing if we were born into sin (inherited blame from our forefathers) yet led a sinless life. Then you could rightly say "I'm blameless myself, yet I'm dam.ned for something my grandfather did?" But Romans 3:10, 23 states "As it is written: no one is righteous; no, not one" and "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." When Adam sinned the ENTIRE WORLD not just humans, became corrupt. We were awakened to the FACT that we had a choice (knowledge of good and evil), although we had always possessed free will. When Adam sinned and sin entered the world, in essence all men were tainted because they could not resist the temptation of sin--for they were of the world, which is corrupt. This is not an injustice of God, it is just a by-product of free will.
If the redemption of mankind was talking solely of being blamed for Adam, how does it make sense that all of creation has suffered from the Fall. This entire world is corrupt:
Romans 8:22-24 "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?"
Romas 8:19 "For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed."
All of creation, even the rocks and the wind, know God's presence. Why do you think there are earthquakes and hurricanes, and general chaos? I've said this before in other threads, but the world is sick--it's groaning. When sin increases in the world, there is an increase in natural disasters, as is seen by end end-of-time predictions in Revelations.
What I'm trying to say by all of this is that everyone's souls are tainted by their own doing. This world is just unable to meet God's standards--which is why they need redemption.
"Wouldn't the just thing to happen would be for everyone to bear their own responsibility for our sins?" Certainly. Scripture is clear that we do not deserve God's grace.
It doesn't make Jesus weak, or a victim, that he chose to die for us. Acts 17:11 Rom 2:4 "Are you, perhaps, misinterpreting God's generosity and patient mercy towards you as weakness on his part? Don't you realize that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?"
and John 19:91 "'Where do you come from?' he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 'Do you refuse to speak to me?' Pilate said. 'Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?' Jesus answered, 'You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."
Jesus did not allow himself to be a victim. When they came to take him away, he let it happen... John 10:17-18 reads: "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
1. We sin by choice, not because of Adam.
2. We ARE held accountable for our individual sins. Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.
3. It is moral that Jesus died for us because he CHOSE to sacrifice himself. He loved us that much.
Any questions? I threw that all together kind of fast :P
Sorry... one last thing.
New International Version (NIV)
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
The Bible does not pretend that we are worthy of God's grace or Jesus's sacrifice.
Perhaps this guy puts it better:
When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God gave them skins to cover up with (Genesis 3:21). To get those skins, some animal had to die. In other words, God sacrificed an animal to cover their sin. From the beginning, God has declared the payment for sin is death, and so blood must be shed to cover sin:
- Leviticus 17:11: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”
- Hebrews 9:22: “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
We could shed our own blood for our own sins, but that wouldn’t do us much good because then we’d be dead. God doesn’t want us dead—he wants us alive. But that leaves him with a great dilemma: we each have sinned and must die for our sins, so how can we live?
God devised a plan. Early in the Old Testament God introduced the idea of one innocent being shedding its blood in place of the sinner’s. After the incident in the garden, he introduced the sacrificial system in the Tabernacle-Temple ceremonies. That’s what those sacrifices were all about: “He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him” (Leviticus 1:4).
However the solution of sacrificing bulls and goats and lambs for the sins of each person’s sin was a temporary fix. The next year, another animal would have to be sacrificed for the same person. A more permanent solution was needed.
That meant a human was needed to die for humans’ sin. But all humans are sinful, so another sin-filled person dying for us just wouldn’t work. A human without sin was needed.
But ever since Adam, every human born is sin-filled, so how could a sinless man happen? The only way was if God did it Himself.
So he did.
Sorry again for the weird spacing. And I'm going to quick posting now, I bet I'm getting annoying :P
This is the closest to an argument from you on this thread I could find, if you have another one in mind, by all means, please post it :P
wait you made a really good point, he didn't tell moses about DNA and evolution. but guess what? he couldn't cause evolution never happened. G-d would be contridicting himself if he said that he created something then told him, "you know whay moses i lied, you actually came from this little thing floating around in a pre-something soup and it rained on the rocks for millions of years, i know you know your genology that tells you that the earth is not quite 2 thousand, but it's a lie all your genology, it really did take millions of years for you to come to the way you are. and guess what else a day is actually a million years and a million years as a day
Let's break this down shall we?
G-d would be contridicting himself if he said that he created something then told him
I guess he would be contradicting himself in the same way Jesus contradicts himself when telling a parable and then admitting it's not a real story.
Figurative language and lies are two different things.
you actually came from this little thing floating around in a pre-something soup and it rained on the rocks for millions of years
Okay, as opposed to him creating us out of dirt and then breathing our souls in? How crazy something sounds to you doesn't change whether it's true or not.
i know you know your genology that tells you that the earth is not quite 2 thousand, but it's a lie all your genology, it really did take millions of years for you to come to the way you are
If by genology you mean the biblical account then I can't say much.
If by genology you mean the genology that every other source in human history, anthropology, archaeology and biology tells us then it does tell us we've lived for much more than 2000 years.
Heck, Jesus lived 2000 years ago and there are more people before him.
I think you meant "6000" years
But that's still blatantly false according to virtually everything except the Bible.
Let me tell you your problem here:
You're taking the Bible, and putting it up against the world and saying everything else that contradicts it is false.
That is the behavior of a cultist, unwilling to admit fallibility of a book.
A book that lists out the punishments in Revelation for corrupting it.
And you still don't believe it can be corrupted, despite the fact that it lists the punishments for doing so.
I think there are scriptures that posit the view that we are automatically sinners when born.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2
Here's a good site:
ht tp://www.desiringgod.o rg/resource-library/articles/what-is-the-biblical-evidence-for-original-sin
Think about this, infants can die can't they? The Bible says that spiritual and physical death are a result of sin.
Can an infant choose to sin?
How is it moral that God gave us a sinful nature in the first place? Why not give us free will and then make us pre-disposed to do good?
When I say, "bear responsibility for our own sins" I mean it both ways.
Wouldn't it be just for us to be completely responsible for every part of our own sin and redemption?
Your argument in your next post seems to hinge on the assumption that we are doomed to sin because we are of the world - "which is corrupt"
Why would God give us free will and then put us into a corrupt world?
If we don't deserve God's grace, how is it just that we get it?
At some point, there is a line between Justice and Love where God overides Justice WITH his love.
Why can't he go further if he can override it a little?
Why can't His love just overpower all of sin and redeem us instantly through His grace and cleanse our souls?
Your next obvious answer is, "Because he gives us a choice"
My next obvious answer is, "If he already knows beforehand who's going to H.ell, why give them a choice?"
At that point, it becomes a Predestination thread. I really don't know at this point.
My faiths being shaken all over the place right now.
:( I didn't mean to shake your faith. I'll have to get to most of your reply later. But as for predestination, I encourage you to look at the Presestination thread and the reply I had my dad type up. It isn't a cut and dry answer, nor should there be one. There's a thin line separating foreknowledge and predestination.
Let me just say that I do not believe infants to to he.ll if they die. I'll leave it at that until I can respond in full.
Have a nice day :)
Nah, It's not you shaking my faith (by yourself anyways :P), it's a lot of things.
Look forward to the rest of the conversation!
Okay, I might have time now.
I DID state that we are automatically sinners when we are born. The only time I've denied that was talking to Destiny, because she used the term Original Sin and I didn't know what that meant.
Alright. So YOUR argument seems to be grounded on the fact that "why didn't God make a world where we were predisposed for good, there was no sin, etc.".
You probably saw this next statement coming from a mile away, but don't discredit it immediately: He DID.
When Adam sinned, sin NATURE enetered the world. Before that, they were predisposed to good. I think the question here is, Does it matter?
It matters not if you have a tendency towards something. Tendency does not negate the choice. Lets say I'm addicted to heroi.n. There was a time in my life (let's reference this to before the Fall) where I had no addiction and yet I choose to sin. After that I am addicted. Yet I still CHOOSE to remain on hero.in. Otherwise, how do some people become free of the addiction? It's hard, and you're certainly more likely to keep doing hero.in than before, but you are making a conscious choice to either stop doing the drug or continue it.
God did make a perfect world. Yet there was always free will to consider too. I'd argue that there's no possible way to make a person, give the free will, and them to live a perfect life, unless you're God in the flesh. Show me one human that has managed this. No, not even Mother Teresa was perfect.
And as I said in my above posts, it would be fair for us to bear our own sins. BUT WE CANNOT LOGICALLY DO THAT. It wouldn't solve the sin problem.
Please read over my above responses. I've addressed a lot of this before. :).
Can you give me some direct, specific questions if you're still on the fence? Btw, you said once that some really intelligent kids on TI first got you doubting your faith. Can I just say that i wouldn't take what they say at face value? No matter how intelligent they are, they're still our age. They are no scientists, nor philosophers. I would encourage you to seek council about things like this (because they truly matter, and you want the best opinions on them). People like your science teacher, a pastor (they'd be happy to discuss things with you), etc. Don't base your beliefs on anything I say, or another teenage spews out of their virtual mouths. You never know where they pulled the information out of.
I can post the website for my dads church if you're ever curious and want to see some of the things he says. Do you go to church regularly? Just wondering. If not, I would encourage you to grow I your faith in that way too. :).
Cuz God wants you to be all in—head over heels for him. Rev 3:16 and Matt. 5:13. Also, he warns against suiting scripture to your own desires: 2 Timothy 4:3.
Hmm, I do like the drug addict analogy, that's neat :P
Here's a question for ya,
Did Jesus die for everyone's sins who came after him, or those before him as well?
Second off, if he died for those before him, why did they have to do sacrifices and such if he would eventually pay their cost too.
If you chose "Only those after him" for the first question, then why didn't we just continue with the sacrificial system?
I agree with you about much of what you've said, I still don't see why God had to create sin or free will in the first place though -_-
Anyways, we've gotten a little off topic.
Where were we about the allegory thing?
I think my last point was that the fact that so much of what we observe contradicts a literal interpretation that it supports an allegorical interpretation.
Along with the fact that a literal interpretation would be incredibly lacking in information.
Also, I know we're all just teenagers in the end, and I shouldn't make decisions based purely off what other people on here tell me, it's just that the more I'm exposed to the faults of my views the more I want to turn away from them.
I feel like this is all a process of growing though, in time, I'll find what I'm looking for.
Jesus died for everyone's sins, including those who came before him.
They had to do sacrifices as a temporary solution and a reminder for their sins.
God didn't create sin. I can see how you'd think that, though. What do you mean about free will?
About allegories: Show me some contradictions. Sorry if you already have, I'm just being lazy. Also.... "lacking in information." The point of Genesis isn't to give us that kind of information.
I really do hope you find what you're looking for! I just hope it'll be Jesus, in the end :) I'm always here when you want to have someone's viewpoint who is 100% in with Christ. I don't see myself ever changing that.
This website is pretty cool for your first question:
ht tp: //www.gotquestions. org/before-Jesus.html
Bump.... Also, have you watched the matrix? It's a huge allegory for Christ and how he is relevant to our "real" lives, lol.... No really, google it if you don't believe me :)
Why did they have to do "temporary" solutions? If Jesus was going to die for them why would they need a "temporary" solution if the real one was already on the way.
People don't go to H.ell as soon as they die, they sleep and then are sent to H.ell on Judgement Day, it's in the Bible -_-
Why would God require a "temporary" solution?
He allows sin by allowing Free Will, if I knew that I was gonna go to H.ell, I'd rather just not have Free Will and be blameless. Simple as that.
By contradictions I mean scientific contradictions, this includes but is not limited to:
The age of the earth
The development of species
The great flood
Dinosaurs either not existing or coexisting with man
The Sun being created after the Earth
A "firmament" being present in the sky
"The point of Genesis isn't to give us that kind of information", exactly my point, which is why people should stop using it that way.
Thanks! I do believe in Jesus, I just don't necessarily believe in the perfectness and literalness of the Bible :)
Yeah, The Matrix is great :D I've heard it as a Christian Allegory, it's pretty cool. It's also an allegory to Plato's "In the Cave" Allegory.
They needed a present-day reminder for their sins. Also, it foreshadowed Jesus's own sacrifice, as was seen in Abraham's case. John 8:56. This was the covenant God made with Abraham. Jesus fulfilled this.
Also, it was a way to communicate to God at the time. When a priest entered the temple, he would sacrifice an animal so that he would temporarily be forgiven for his sins. Isaiah 59:1-2 explains this a little, and Leviticus 17:11.
If you'd rather be blameless yet not have free will, I guess that sort of thinking makes you unworthy of heaven anyway (not you in particular, I'm saying in general). Anyways, you go to he.ll by your own choice, just because God knows the end result doesn't make Him at fault.
As for the age of the earth.... I'll have to look into it. But there's heaps of evidence for a great flood, and about dinosaurs... I'll get back to you on that too. (That's always puzzled me). I already addressed the sun issue, and the "firmament" in the sky.....
Sorry for getting mad at you earlier, btw. No excuses. No PMS. :)
P.s. I never meant to imply that we go directly to he.ll/heaven when we die. Sorry if I said that....