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Breece6 replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 12:27 pm

Packerbacker:

FINE THEN, BOOKS YOU WILL QUOTE

:P

I'll start a Big Bang thread, since you asked :)

"If a Turtle has a mutation, then isn't still a turtle."

This sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I'm going to assume you meant "it is still a turtle", and work from there. Right, so basically, yes, it's still a turtle.

PACK IT UP GUYS, EVOLUTION'S TOAST, TURTLE'S STILL A G.ODDANG TURTLE.

jk :P

We discussed this already. Speciation and macro-evolution is just microevolution over a longer period of time. If that turtle undergoes enough mutations, then no, it will not be a turtle.

The reason they can't intermingle is because they have evolved with the population and environment that they descended from, which is fundamentally different from other populations. Therefore they evolved different characteristics and different s.ex traits.

Consider the fact that a large many of them can only intermingle with themselves. Because they're a.sexual.

You still haven't directly addressed the many other points I've made, I'm assuming you still haven't had enough time yet.

I look forward to it though :)

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Breece6 replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 12:28 pm

 
Packerbacker:
 
FINE THEN, BOOKS YOU WILL QUOTE 
 
:P
 
I'll start a Big Bang thread, since you asked :)
 
"If a Turtle has a mutation, then isn't still a turtle."
 
This sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense, I'm going to assume you meant "it is still a turtle", and work from there.  Right, so basically, yes, it's still a turtle.  
 
PACK IT UP GUYS, EVOLUTION'S TOAST, TURTLE'S STILL A G.ODDA.NG TURTLE.
 
jk :P  
 
We discussed this already.  Speciation and macro-evolution is just microevolution over a longer period of time.  If that turtle undergoes enough mutations, then no, it will not be a turtle.  
 
The reason they can't intermingle is because they have evolved with the population and environment that they descended from, which is fundamentally different from other populations.  Therefore they evolved different characteristics and different s.ex traits. 
 
Consider the fact that a large many of them can only intermingle with themselves.  Because they're a.se.xual.  
 
You still haven't directly addressed the many other points I've made, I'm assuming you still haven't had enough time yet.  
 
I look forward to it though :)
 

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packerbacker12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 12:44 pm

what other points:)i think i lost track of which ones ive answered. could you please repoint them out thankyou:)
 
Yes you're right about my sentence i wrote it wrong:)(was a little heated so things don't always come out right:)
 
could you please answer my queston that you are avoiding.
 
if all came from the SAME cell i the pre-something soup then how do they get a DIFFERENT trait?
 
and please tell me how it changes to a non-turtle:)
 
Shalom Alechiem!

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Breece6 replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 2:18 pm

A re-post of my older post before I get to the current stuff:
  
In regards to your actual challenge: 
  
There are tons of examples of evolution, and yes, that includes species changing.  The Cichlids, a type of fish that lives in Africa, are one of the more notable ones.  They have evolved into hundreds of different species that can all be traced back.  The famous finch's that Darwin studied are a good one, the Peppered Moths.  The Three Toed SKink has evolved WITHIN our lifetime from laying eggs to live birth.  That is a HUGE change biologically speaking, in an incredibly small amount of time.  We have recorded over 50,000 generations of E-coli making drastic changes that render them immune to our own generations of anti-bacterial weapons.   
  
You seem to be caught up in the misconception about Micro-Evolution and Macro-evolution.  Here's a trip for ya, they are the same thing.  The only difference is time scale.  "Microevolution" is just the details of macroevolution.  
  
Here's an entire site from PBS that explains evolution: ht tp://www.pbs.o rg/wgbh/evolution/ 
  
The argument against evolution in the scientific community is non-existent.  The media has recently been blowing up with stories about the .00001% of scientists that don't believe in evolution.  That is not the mainstream.  That's not where the anttbiotics that cure your cold are coming from.  
  
If evolution didn't make sense, none of the antibiotics or flu shots you take would ever work, it's that essential of a theory in biology.   
  
Here's a nice source about it from a college website: ht tp://anthro.palomar.e du/evolve/evolve_3.htm 
  
In regards to the "Wiki" not being reliable enough and wanting credible sources: 
  
All right, I'll bite, I'll give you some real sources then: 
  
The Bible Unearthed - a book by Archaeologists of Ancient Israel and Mesopotamia that explains the evidence against the Exodus ever happening. 
  
The Age of Reason - by Thomas Paine, a book criticizing institutionalized religion and the legitmacy of the Bible.   
  
Dictionaire Philosophique - by Voltaire, a book containing many articles about Christianity, morality, and religion in general.   
  
The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in Matthew and Luke - Raymond Brown, a book about the inconsistencies of the gospel 
  
Have at it if you may sir :)

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packerbacker12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 2:30 pm

well here it is my friend:)
 
First of all, if someting has evolved in our lifetime that would disprove anything else evolving billions and millions of years ago since evolution has to take place over a long period of time(i bleive that that's in our biology textbooks) you ever taken that oh yeah it's a great course breece!!!!!!
 
and yes there is variation within the same kind. must i repeat. a dog preoduces millions of different kinds dogs. BUT it is still a dog.
 
I like reading things better than going on a hunt for links. so if you want to copy paste it go ahead because i don't have time to go look them up.
 
and those .000001% of scients who believe that evolution can't be true are pure geniuses. they actually understand the laws of science.
 
and just to let you know flu shots make the majority of people sick. and antibiotics always have side affects. you're curing one part of the body but you're killing the rest.
 
looks good to me:)
 
Shalom ALechiem!
 
 

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Breece6 replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 2:43 pm

Packerbacker:
 
If by "avoiding" you mean "haven't answered because I never asked it", then SHOOR.
:P
 
Random mutations in germline cells are the basis of evolution.  
 
Guess what?  This happens in as.exual reproduction too :)  Furthermore it happens faster since as.exual reproduction occurs faster (ya don't gotta hook up first :P).
 
As for the turtle:
 
Disclaimer: I do not know the actual evolutionary tree of a turtle, and will be speaking hypothetically.  Regardless of the accuracy of the details, the process is the same.
 
Now, let's have a look at this turtle shall we :)
 
Let's say this turtle lives in, I don't know... Canada.  
 
Now this turtle's got a pretty good thing goin' for him, he's got a nice wife, plenty of food, and thinkin' about asking the misses is she wants to make some baby turtles.  However, a drought comes along!  
 
This nasty old drought deprives him of his food supply, which mostly involved pond vegetation and underwater plants.  The plants on the land nearby are too hard to chew for this wittle turtle's poor mouthy-wouthy.  
 
So he dies.
 
BUT, his neighbor, mister Frank Turtlekins, has acquired a strong, firm, jawline with a nice pair of gums from his genetics :D  Now Mr. Turtle's wife is a widow sincer her huband died from starvation, so mister Frank Turtlekins decides to get the rebound and mates with her :)  Now his "mutation" is an actual trait that he passes down through his children, some of them acquire it and live to pass it down to their children.  
 
Eventually, Mr. Turtlekins' children face an invasive species of rabid koala snakes that feed on young turtles.  
 
So they die.
 
BUT, luckily Mr. Turtlerella's kids have married into Mr. Turtlekins' family and acquired both the strong jawline, AND a unique trait of their family, the VIOLENT TURTLE CLAWS OF DEATH
 
which they use to fight off the koala snakes.  
 
Now eventually, the fittest of each generation survive, and new and greater threats present themselves the survival of the turtles.  
 
Over many generations of new environmental and ecological threats, the turtles grow more and more adaptations, now the jawline and claws of death are accompanied by longer, more slender bodies, as well as the internal organs and intestinal changes to allow them to become carnivores.  They begin to at meat, the "turtles" with the eyes in the front of their head have better hunting skills so they gradually switch to the front.  The turtles with longer teeth are able to viciously bite into their prey easier, and retain those traits.  
 
Before you know it, millions of years and hundreds of thousands of generations later, Mr. Turtlekins' and Turtlerella's offspring have become
 
ALLIGATORS.
 
ht tp://t0.gstatic.c om/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTVMSzt2w9dvzau3ILmuzK4dYwFdL132b8f0KpbF7HhMQ2V6nAdEw:upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Z_The_End_Notorious.png
 
So basically, as I've stated before, mutations stack on top of each other and eventually create new species.

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Artgirl1999 replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm

Well, I don't have time for a super-long post right now, but maybe later. For now, Breece, I think packerbacker has a point.

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Breece6 replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 2:52 pm

I think I have a point too... a pretty long one in lots of detail that I posted right above your post...
 
Why does everyone just blatantly ignore half the things I say and pretend like they're right because they address one facet of my argument?  And usually incorrectly as well...

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packerbacker12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm

i'm sorry but that has to be why those .00001% of scientists don't believe in evolution. becuase it is just a child's storytale.could you please tell me where in the world this mutationof the jawline came from since it's genetic code seems not to cantain it:)
 
shalom Aleciem!
 
p.s. you believe that you came from a rock. so which is more ridiculous: in the beginning G-d... or in the beginning dirt...
seriously

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packerbacker12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm

i meant to say rock not dirt:)

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CollinF replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 3:10 pm

packerbacker:
 
"you believe that you came from dirt"
 
I don't mean to be snarky, but don't you believe this too? "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7)
 
Why can't it be both? Why limit God's power to popping things into existence out of nothingness rather than forming them over time with pre-existing materials?

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packerbacker12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 3:24 pm

um did you see that i meant to put rock... maybe you should've read my post following.
 
Shalom Alechiem!

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CollinF replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 3:31 pm

There's not much of a difference between a rock and dirt, my friend. It's really the same concept . . .

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CollinF replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 3:33 pm

And I actually think the current theory says "premordial ooze," not rock. What the c.rap "ooze" is in scientific terms I'm not sure.

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An-eloquent-leafThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 4:35 pm

Oh dear. Now I'm questioning the competency of your Biology teacher, packerbacker. So much to say about your...theories...on the theory of evolution, but so little motivation to write it out—because I know it'll either receive a one-sentence, poorly-grammared reply or be blatantly ignored/misconstrued. And on that note, I'll pretend that reposting my previous post will gather attention:

"Anyway. Packer, for me you can sorta add my post with Breece's recent post in the part concerning evolution (though I didn't check his links out), especially the section about viruses/bacteria. I know he didn't mention much about them, so if you'd like me to go into a bit of detail about viruses/bacteria, I'll try (though you might be better off googling).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but given what you've been saying, I'm assuming that speciation is your drawing for your belief in evolution. But I'll ask: Why? Sure, it's on a smaller scale, but the ideas between micro-evolution and macro-evolution are pretty much the same. I want a straight-up answer.

A common ancestor evolved into what organisms live today by random mutations. The negatively-mutated-organisms were swiftly weeded out (i.e. organisms living with an extra chromosome, since they can't produce offspring); neutrally-mutated-organisms just kinda stay in the game without much effect (i.e. something changes in an organism's DNA triplet/codon, but the relating amino acid remains unchanged); and postively-mutated-organisms thrive, and even can push out their related organisms out of the picture (i.e. a Darwinian finch created with a longer beak, allowing it to eat more bugs and grow stronger---and therefore gain greater fitness---than the surrounding finches).

But I digress (again). (I kinda feel like I'm preaching to the choir here...)

On one last (if a bit cheeky) note, packer, since you often seem to be so eager to mention how Scripture does/doesn't support an idea-- I don't see a verse in the Bible arguing against the theory of evolution ;)"

Anyway, to add on a bit more, Packer, I'm just gonna say that you're wrong. Wrong about the lack of a turtle's jawline in its genetic code—or a turtle's anything (even his ----, for that matter)—, mean. Every little aspect about every organisms' characters is encoded in its, well, genetic code. Physical aspects, at least, since I know there is mild controversy about whether or not personality traits are in the genetic code (and I don't want an irrevelant discrepancy like that to be cause to dereail this post).

And on one last note, Packer, if you believe every scientific piece of work regarding evolution is automatically biased, but you insist on citing sources, what do you honestly expect us to do?

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packerbacker12This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 5:09 pm

sorry leaf:( i meant to say that when you cite things just copy paste them so we don't have to go cite jumping:) oh and yes please tell me how we have personality. and also how are we the living things that have a true and so complex language. and able to learn other languages. and please show me a missing link fossil.
 
Shalom Alechiem!

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An-eloquent-leafThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 5:16 pm

It's times like these where I lose faith in humanity.

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An-eloquent-leafThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 5:17 pm

Oh, and half.note, I can't answer your post right, but I will later.

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ContemplatorThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 7:22 pm

leafy: I'll be taking a different approach on the matter.  I'll make it short and to the point.
 
1. Micro-evolution is a misleading term. 
2. I believe in natural selection 
3. Man is might be evolving into higher mutations due to the lack of dna diversity thingy
4. No direct evidence supporting evolution 
5. Bible says 6 days, everything was made. 
 
 
I have to go now. BYE

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CollinF replied...
Feb. 22, 2013 at 8:20 pm

In fact, maybe the Bible's point wasn't that God just felt like usin' some dirt to shape up Adam. Maybe it's a poetic way of telling us there was something in-between. Why else it would say God made man from the earth and not merely from His own will for man to exist I can't puzzle out.
 
Also, interestingly enough, there was a very interesting book that came out a while back in which a biologist explained that the six days of Genesis were actually exactly how the steps of the development of life would appear on the earth's surface. 
 
Referenced in another great book by one of the men I respect most on the entire planet, John Lennox. Look him up on Amazon and Youtube!
 
Seven Days that Divide the World. published by trusty ole Zondervan.

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