Out of Curiosity, Does Anyone Else on Here Believe in Predestination?
Wait. So we're being punished because of S.atan?
Let's have some more logic shall we.
So the only two free wills in existence are S.atan and G.od?
And because God gave S.atan free will and he created sin we will all be punished for it?
I'm sorry, just explain to me why we're being punished if we never had the free will to not sin.
Maybe your problem is with the definition of free will.
Free will, by my definition I'm making up now, is the choice to sin.
Do we have free will, by my definition?
Okay, okay... *takes a deep breath* I agree and disagree with you breece:). Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination, but I think everyone is forgetting that he.ll was originally for satan and his rebellious angels AND THEM ALONE. So how are humans predestined for heaven OR he.ll? Especially when humans weren't supposed to die in the first place...?
The part about predstination was directed towards PB and the he.ll part for breece:)
that's a quite interesting statement you claim there. the freedom to sin.
let's have some more logic shall we.
if you ask any other christian besides you(i don't know just an asumption) they would say the freedom to choose G-d. as in we chose him instead of him choosing us.
and ultimatley we are being punished because of satan(no need for a period there my friend). since satan tricked eve into taking the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. so ultimately yes we are being punished because of satan.
and yes by your defintion we do have the will to sin. but He knows we will.
PB: you're contradicting yourself again. And he KNOWS we will sin, he does not MAKE us sin, therefore we have free will, therefore we have the freedom to sin.
tell me my cotridiction!
Okay, so you do agree with me that we have free will if we define free will as the ability to choose whether to follow God or not?
It's just he knows what we'll do.
I can live with that, as long as it's our fault and we're choosing to sin I can talk to you without tearing my hair out :)
And I think your "contradiction" was saying that we had a choice to sin and not saying we have free will. (referring to RarelyJaded's contradiction)
However I think you just disagree with me (and possibly us) on what free will entails.
So what does free will involve that we don't have?
o my goodness. no i don't agree with your first statement. i thik that is what free will doctrine is i do not belive that we can choose G-d only he can choose us. look at the verses i provided a few posts back!
we can choose to sin or not to sin. okay i guess that could be "free" will since it is our will because G-d can't be where sin is.
if that doesn't clear up my contridiction please let me know:)
So... If you sin your whole life but god predestined you to go to heaven, you go to heaven?
no because if he predestined you to be saved. then he puts HIS will in you to follow him:) happy thought ain't it:)
No. You said we can choose whether or not to sin. But god puts that choice in us? Bingo! Contradiction número 5,000
yes we can choose whether or not to sin. no contridiction. but it doesn't change the future. he already know the beginning and end.
You ignored my second sentence -.- It explains the contradiction perfectly.
And once again, FOREKNOWLEDGE does not equal PREDESTINATION.
yes he allows us to sin or not. but he prestined us to be saved or not. so if you are predestined to be saved then you strive for him and will sin but are trying your best not to. hence the saying WWJD
I feel like I'm walking in circles, but then I realize I'm talking to you! :) I think we should just agree to disagree, PB, since we've both been saying the same thing over and over, just slightly reworded. Shalom! :)
i hate that saying. i don't ever agree to disagree with anyone:) including YOU!
Shalom Alechiem!(nice shalom:)
But I don't know what else to say, except re-quote each of my verses one by one and have you try to refute them one by one..... And then do the same with yours. It would take forever, and chances are it would be pointless. You said yourself that you're rarely convinced to sway your beliefs.
So you're saying that if we are predestined it is not our Will that is in us but God's will. But when we sin it is our will.
So it's like God is controlling us except when we sin.
Also you never answered my question, what does free will entail?