Out of Curiosity, Does Anyone Else on Here Believe in Predestination?
@RarelyJaded It's cool, I knew that you weren't replying to me, it's cool ;)
@CollinF I'm a new member on the sight, just stopped by in this thread. I like these discussions, so I'm glad that my thought process makes a little sense to someone haha :)
Hey, just had a thought:). You said a while back that you don't believe free will exists.... So if I wanted to argue AGAINST God, it's because HE wanted it? It's his will? Correct me if I'm wrong:)
yep you're wrong:) it wasn't his will for sodom and gommarah to sin but he did know it was going to happen:)
But.... That's what I've been arguing all along! And what you just said is not predestination. So confused O.o
If its not his will for them to sin, then he did not predestine them to sin and go to he.ll
whoever said anything about people being predestined to sin. you're predestined to be saved.
You go to he.ll if you sin against god. So.... Never mind.
Alrighty…. lol, I read my above comment and it sounded like I told you to go to he.ll. (That’s definitely NOT what I said, though…)
Here’s my argument against predestination in a nutshell:
1 John 2.1-2 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.”
So anyone can find grace.
James 5.19-20 “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
Grace cannot be predestined, because it is not once-saved-always-saved. You can fall away from the grace of the Lord.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save THE WORLD through him.”
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved.”
Romans 1:16 “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.”
Genesis 1:31 “God saw all that He had made, and it was very good.” (See, here nothing was predestined. All was good. God did not intend for sin to enter the world, and certain men would have to have been predestined from before creation to be predestined at all.)
Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” … Everyone sins. Everyone should die. But grace is a free gift for those who seek it: Ephesians 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, though faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” And Romans 3:22 “The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Phew *.* …. That is all for now, until someone replies. J Sorry for the long post.
you sound like you're making an argument for truth seeking not free will. well here's my argument against free will in a nutshell:)
Psa 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.
Job 14:5 You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live, and we are not given a minute longer.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (i wonder why some fools here mock allah because of this.)
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
just focus on the last two verses really well:)
Shalom Alechiem(peace be unto you)
Can I reply to this in length tomorrow? And I said I was going to call you pb but I haven't yet. So, pb, it seems as though our selected scriptures contradict each other... And as for my argument not being on topic... I don't see how. Like REALLY don't see why you think that O.o
because you're using creation to justify predestination.
That was one passage out of several... And anyways, did it not make sense? My point was that god said that what he was created was good. He did not have favorites, and he.ll was not created for humans anyway. So he did not predestine us.
even after all those verses about predestination*sigh*hopless.
That's how I feel! Lol. But in reverse.
Wow. I hadn't checked this thread in forever, and then I come on here and it's up to five pages.
Anyway, my belief in predestination is primarily due to Biblical proof. Which, packerbacker12 just laid out very nicely. So, if you want my proof/evidence, just go look at that lovely long post above, containing lots and lots of Bible verses that, thanks to pb12, I didn't have to go look up. =D
contemplator and half.note: Guys! You two changed your profile pictures! I didn't recognize you at first, because my eye only caught the pictures. Was there a reason that you both changed them near the same time? =P
And Breece: So, do you classify yourself as a liberal or open-minded Christian? Cause I keep getting confused on what exactly it is that you believe. =D
oh yeah i solved the world's problems:)
Well, it was predestined;)
yes it was:)
Okay, I think this all a big misunderstanding the more I read.
Let me quote you directly:
"yep you're wrong:) it wasn't his will for sodom and gommarah to sin but he did know it was going to happen:)"
Alright, let's follow some logic here.
G = God's Will
O = Our (human) will
~ is a symbol we will use to mean "not" or "absence of"
Therefore ~G = The absence of God's will
Alright, now let's think this through:
If sin = ~G
Then how does it happen?
I propose that sin occurs because
sin = O
And when O is rebellious against G then God d.amns us to H.ell.
Now I think that it is possible that God knows what we are going to do beforehand.
So perhaps he has foreknowledge about O and whether or not we go to Heaven or H.ell. But I don't think that foreknowledge is the same as "Predestination". If it is, then I agree with you :)
not even proof can change a stubborn soul.
why does sin happen you ask. well i'll tell you i don't know. just kidding that's a quote from a movie:)
Serious note: sin happens because satan one of G-d's messengers rebeled and tried to be higher than G-d. then ever since has been trying to take revenge on G-d because he was cast down from heaven:)
hope that helps:)