Out of Curiosity, Does Anyone Else on Here Believe in Predestination?
steelersJdog: i think that pharoah heart was hardened because pharoah would've let them go but G-d wanted them to fear and trust G-d.
And your interpretation of the verse is you making it up out of anger actually. it is talking about when evryone will know him. that is the end of days go read 31:31-34. maybe a little context will help:) and i do agree it is a poor example but you can't prove free will either.
Yes, that's the Old Testament. When Jesus came he established a new covenant so that all might have eternal life. Christians aren't bound by the old law.
bound?so your saying all prophecies are wrong and that creation is not so. i guess moses didn't go up the mountain. oh and how do you tell right from wrong?
Show me scripture that says we aren't "bound" by the law anymore.
Why are we talking about prophecy and creation now? That's nothing to do with the covenant god created with the Jews. And as for morality, the bible says we go to heaven by believing in and loving Jesus... And defines love as obedience. We are not bound by our sins anymore and therefore the law does not apply... As soon as I find the exact scripture I will post it:)
First off, I would appreciate it if you would not accuse me of making something up out of anger. The passage may be refering to the end times depending on how you interpret the phrase "New Covenant". Personally, I believe that the new covenant was Jesus fulfilling his mission by sacrificing His life for us on the cross. This is another term that is debated over as to what Jesus actually meant, but I can assure you that I did not make it up. As for free-will, I cannot prove the concepts of God to anyone, and that is not what I intend to do. But through His word and the love that He has revealed to me, I know that I made a conscious choice to follow Him. Whether God predestined me to be with Him or not, I'll never know until I'm with Him, but as for now, I believe that it's a little bit of both free-will and predestination.
Once again my reply did not post:(. I do not know if you are intentionally misunderstanding/twisting my words, but talking about creation and prophecy is completely unrelated. I'm talking about he covenant that G.od created with the Je.ws, and the new one that Jesus created with everyone. As for morality, we go to heaven by believing and loving Go.d, which means obeying him. Instead of an impersonal law that decides our fate, Jes.us is the mediator for our sal.vation. As soon as I find the scripture I'd be happy to post it. It's a position I've been taught all my life, always backed by Go.d's word.
We are not bound by the law:
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[a] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[c] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[d] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
(Sorry for the large font, it was a copy and paste)
The reference is Galatians 3:10-14
Here's a couple of verses, I'll let you interpret them however you want. The words that are not scripture are not my own, but they explain what I mean and you can look up the referenced passages if you want. Here they are:
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (Joh 5:24, NIV)
If God is for us, who can be against us? Certainly not God, who did not even keep back his own Son, but offered him for us all! He gave us his Son—will he not also freely give us all things? Who will accuse God’s chosen people? God himself declares them not guilty! (Rom 8:31-33, GNB)
How great is God’s love for all who worship him? Greater than the distance between heaven and earth! How far has the LORD taken our sins from us? Farther than the distance from east to west! (Psalm 103:11-12, CEV)
Abolishment of the Old Testament Law was promised in Jer.31:30 and affirmed by the Word of God: that the law is to be abolished (2 Cor. 3:6-13; Eph. 2:15). The New Testament proclaims that Christ is the end of the law (Rom 10:4); for those who have faith in Christ - If you have faith, then you are not obligated to keep Moses’ law (which are the 10 commandments).
King James Version (KJV)
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Packebacker: Haha, well, It seems as though your dismissing my interpritation of the Bible. In that case, I can hardly quote any scripture due to this unspoken, but implied accusation. I could go for the logic of things, but we both know, man is flawed by nature. But, it looks like thats the only tool your letting me use!
Have you ever considered the trinity? Three persons in God. Each person being fully God, and fully seperate person of each other. And only one God at the same time? I bring this up because of a particular member of this trinity. God the Son, Jesus. Jesus was fully man. Is fully man. He suffered, he was tempted. He went through the trials and temptations of all man. One thing seperated Jesus the son of man from man, and that was his innocence. Jesus never sinned. But that isn't what I want to look at right now.
I want to look at the human side of him. Jesus obviously gave up some of his 'God' attributes, such as his omnipresence. Did he give up anything else? Didn't Jesus admit that He didn't know when the end is exactly? Is that a breech at Jesus', the fully God fully man, omniscience?
So, in this light, it is possible for God, atleast Jesus, who is God... Isn't it possible for God to chose NOT to know, or controll, or be?
I have no Idea why that came out in bold... I guess its okay.
Everything on this page looks bold to me. TeenInk does that sometimes.
Anyways, it seems this controversy has managed to get replies from a bunch of people who don't regularly post.
Maybe we've got some lurkers who haven't been posting, eh? *Grins evilly*
Anyways, On Topic:
I'm going to leave the scriptual debate up to others, they seem to be doing well enough.
I'll attack you from the "moral implications" side *grins sinisterly* :P
You said, "You shouldn't go out and kill people because the Creator said not to".
Hmm... but if I'm predestined to go to H.ell anyways, why should it matter what the Creator says not to do?
If I'm predestined for anything why does it matter what the creator says?
In fact. I concede actually. In your idea of a world without "free will" nothing I can possibly say to you or nothing you can say to me will change anything.
Nothing will ever be changed in eternity because it's all pre-supposed.
I suppose at this point, I really don't have anything to say to you.
It won't change anything, will it?
Hmm, I think I like the term "lurker." Very mysterious.... -ly creepy:). I'm new, so I haven't posted much.
Breece6: Your argument mad me think of Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths...
Ah, hm, yup. Theres the super nerd side of me. Relating controversial topics and awesome arguments to DC universe philosophy and movies. -_-
:D I love how much activity this forum is getting recently, it's nice to have something to write about again :)
Also Contemplator, I do the same exact thing with Doctor Who. You should watch it, if you haven't already :P
I've seen an episode and I do like it. I just don't get the oppurtunity to watch it. I saw the one where this Dr.who saves a young girl, then leaves, and then comes back years later by mistake. And there's a giant eye and a scary monster who takes control of bodies.
Not wanting to get off topic. Sorry!
Breece is right. Packerbacker's apparently got a knack for drawing out the lurkers.
Who's this SteelerJdog? I like the way he thinks.
The starter of this post hasn't commented in like forever. Strange.
Hmm. It looks like I was replying to steelersJdog... But I was talking to packerbacker :P just to clear up any confusion that may or may not have happened. Anyways, Hi leaf! I don't think i know you yet:)
wooo i've got cacthing up to do:)i'm going to start a new thread for being bound by the law:) i don't want to write a 5 page essay reply.
BREECE: because you don't know if you're predestined or not. and you're right nothing i say or that you say will change anyhting because prohpecies have to be fulufilled.(most of them already have). nothing will change G-d knew that i was going to wake up today and exactly how i was going to get out of bed, but He probably doesn't dwell on it.