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CollinF replied...
Nov. 1, 2012 at 11:36 pm

Every time I hold babies they cry. :( I like kindergarten-aged kids. They say the funniest stuff. "Collin, there's a ghost in the school. We should bring my sister to scare it. Girls are way scarier than ghosts." : ' )
 
And no, no. It's cool. That was a joke, Destinee. I've met plenty a Mexican Jesus in my time and never batted an eye. I'm Protestant, my Muslim friend. Not a whole lotta guidelines for that sorta thing. 
 
And yeah, yeah. We've had this convo, Dess. Right now I'm thinkin I wanna just pastor a large church, do lots of missions work, and work on desecularizing American culture. A major part of the struggle would be working on inter-faith relations. Stop turning people away from God because we can't get along with each other. Or maybe just throw my hands up and go to law school. Or med school. Or business school. #Sigh
 
And hmm. Bigamy. I hadn't thought of that. Maybe if I like meet twins or somethin it won't really count . . .
 
And whoa now. What makes ya say that? This spirit can't be tamed. Besides, I'm kinda cynical about the whole "falling in love" process. Doesn't go over well in a Nicholas Sparks culture. 
 
And yeah, that sounds . . . great. "Even the Conservatives here are Liberal." Plus it's cold. And I'm not friendly enough. Are you allowed to be sarcastic in Canada?
 
And hey, Don't limit my dreams. I'll be what I wanna be. :p
 
And well, ugh . . . he had to account for leap years. And yup. Supposedly for political reasons, but I'm sure it had its perks.
 
And hey now. You're treadin on dangerous ground there, my friend. I take pride in that outfit. :)
 
 

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Destinee replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 12:11 am

LOL cute! Yeah toddlers are adorable :) I thought I hated newborns until I saw the most perfect of babies, my nephew. :) And haha I'm sure if you were an uncle your nephew/niece would have an automatic affinity to you. :) Otherwise babies cry if I touch them too... they probably sense our sinfulness :P
 
OH YEAH Mexicans say "Hasus" or something. Probably closer to the original :)
 
If we've had this convo then why are you considering it? But I think pastor is better than apologetic. I approve more :) After all, Yusuf Estes converted from being a pastor to a Muslim when he was 52, so maybe 30 years from now you may do the same :)
 
And not business. You won't find any fulfillment :) At least with medicine you can help people. Though it takes an AWFUL long time. :/ Seriously. I'm considering med school but spending the next 8 years of my life studying seems a bit much... How will I have 5 kids if I'm just studying all the time?!?! *panic* 
 
Actually, what you said about God/unity reminds me of a video in which an Islamic teacher (NOT scholar) talks about how the world is heading towards separation based on belief in God, and non-belief, and eventually these arguments that we have on Jesus' identity and all will pale in comparison to the ultimate argument on the existence of God :)
 
Nicholar Sparks...heard that name... :/ Was he in Harry Potter?
 
It's not cold EVERYWHERE. Some parts of Canada are lower than parts of America, e.g. Alaska :P Just kidding, but seriously, parts of Ontario dip below parts of the US. And people are sarcastic!!!!!! Look dude, do you want to raise your kids in AMERICA where people are like mental, or in Canada where everybody speaks sunshine and happiness? (Total hyperbole. :P) 
 
But really, apply to the school that I'm referring to. A LOT (and I mean a LOT) of Americans came here. It's kinda crazy. But I think it's probably more rewarding than going to one of the Ivy schools, since those are insanely competitive, but it still has an excellent reputation :) 
 
"Supposedly" for political reasons? Such respect :P
 
Haha you musta stood out :)

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 12:59 am

Collin:  Block dem notifications amigo.  And no, I don't want you to troll a comment, I want to TALK to ya brotha!  It was crazy weird actually chatting with Dess (the feeling was mutual I guess), because it was all "I know you from TI, but other then that, not so much!"  So ya, you hop on facebook, we chat, and awesomeness ensues.
 
Breece:  Somehow I knew that was gonna be the request :P.  Ive had this debate a number of times, so here goes.
 
The Golden Rule.  The Ethic of Reciprocity.  Basically, the idea that states "treat others as you would prefer to be treated".  We notice that when multiple people help one another, the end result is often of a higher quality than a product of a lone effort.  As a social species, our psychology developed with that in mind.
 
It has been shown that "following" a group is pleasurable to people, while going a against the group, or excluded from one, is displeasureable (think back to middle school).
 
This applies not only to high school shinanigans, but to our primitive ancestors.  Back then, getting excluded from the group didnt mean bullies and slow dancing with your mom on prom night, it ment death.
 
Therefore, our minds developed an unspoken "morality" that tells us what is "right" and what is "wrong".  Generally, "wrong" means against the good of the people, and "right" means for the good of the people.
 
Think back to my previous statement, where I said that exclusion ment death for our ancestors. Now, remember that one would be excluded from the group if they go against the will of the many, or "do wrong".  We still punish when one goes against the will of the many, in the form of prison, or in extreme cases, death.
 
Essentially, we do right to ensure we remain favorable within our social group.  Interestingly enough, our selfishness keeps us moral.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 1:22 am

XD
Thanks Destinee and Collin for making me laugh. I was reading all you random posts, and they're really enjoyable. I'm so lucky to know such funny people. :D
 
Anyways, I'll just add my opinion on a few points you discussed.
 
First of all, I agree with Destinee: babies are so cute!!!! *covers heart with hand*
And I think I may have mentioned it in a different thread, but I'm an aunty as well. Got a niece and a nephew. My niece is nearly a year and my nephew is almost four. I love my nephew to death! Cutest. Kid. Ever. And what's awesome is that he adores me as much as I adore him. We're really close. :)
 
Also, as a Canadian, I really must speak up on the topic.
Mostly to say: JOIN THE DARK SIDE, COLLIN!
 
Canada is awesome. Snow. Beavers. Hockey. Politics (Well, that part isn't so great. We're becoming so socialist here that it's frightening! But I try not to think about it.) Anwyays, as I was saying... Hockey...
 
I live in Central Alberta (about 15 minutes drive from the capital city, Edmonton) so it actually gets quite cold so far north. It's been snowing all day (which sucked because I had to go out and shovel :P), so we've got a good inch or so on the ground. But I'm guessing it's probably still pretty warm where you guys are.
 
Anyways, this is the only post I had time for, I'll try to post elsewhere either tomorrow (Friday) or Sunday.
 
God bless. <3

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Breece6 replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 6:09 am

I'm too shy to have religious and political discussions on facebook, I'll do it anywhere else though!
 
Babies are cute... until they grow up and become annoying little sisters.  (or neices in your case :P)
 
Alex:
 
That was the funnest choice :P
 
And yup, I pretty much agree with you, I've had thoughts along the same lines, though you articulated them much better than I have as yet.  
 
Colin:
 
Looking forward to what you have to say, I never said I needed convincing though, not even my thread :P

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Breece6 replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 6:09 am

I'm too shy to have religious and political discussions on facebook, I'll do it anywhere else though!
 
Babies are cute... until they grow up and become annoying little sisters.  (or neices in your case :P)
 
Alex:
 
That was the funnest choice :P
 
And yup, I pretty much agree with you, I've had thoughts along the same lines, though you articulated them much better than I have as yet.  
 
Colin:
 
Looking forward to what you have to say, I never said I needed convincing though, not even my thread :P

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Breece6 replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 6:09 am

I'm too shy to have religious and political discussions on facebook, I'll do it anywhere else though!
 
Babies are cute... until they grow up and become annoying little sisters.  (or neices in your case :P)
 
Alex:
 
That was the funnest choice :P
 
And yup, I pretty much agree with you, I've had thoughts along the same lines, though you articulated them much better than I have as yet.  
 
Colin:
 
Looking forward to what you have to say, I never said I needed convincing though, not even my thread :P

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 3:01 pm

Our collective train of thought just got sidetracked. Or went over a cliff. Or jumped dimensions. :)
 
Nicolas Sparks is a romance writer. Ever heard of "The Notebook"?
 
I went to Canda once! I have to admit it was not encouraging. Southwestern Ontario looks exactly like Northern Minnesota, and northern Minnesota is one of the most dreary, soul-sucking places on the planet. (It doesn't help it was in the fall and rained every day.) I bet the rest of the country's pretty cool, though. (Alberta's directly north of where I am.)

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CollinF replied...
Nov. 2, 2012 at 6:04 pm

to Alex:
 
Huh. Sounds pretty sweet. I'll hit ya up with a message later today. And wait . . . you can block those? I'm sorry Mark Zuckerburg! Take me back! Oh, and how much of the Bible have you read so far? I'm assuming you made it through to like Genesis 50 and went, "*Sigh* I'm just gonna follow Collin's wise advice and read John then Romans."  Actually, I think you'd like Ecclesiastes most. Kinda the cynical "People are idiots" appoach to Christianity. It's short, well-written, and packed fulla wisdom.   "Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good."  "There is a time for everyhting . . . "
 
 
And I think you've oversimplified things here. I know you're not being comprehensive here, but I don't think your position can be improved by anything more than big words. Both Charles Darwin and Thomas Henry Huxley admitted that there was more to morality than that. It's a delicate balance of self-preservation and sacrificing for others: a paradox which ethical philosophers have been reflecting on for millenia. There is something beyond mere instinct that tells us which instinct is the moral one in a particular situation. If morality from a Christian perspective did exist, then would it not necessarily manifest itself in man's instincts, assuming evolution is true? Evolution does not give us a basis for morality any more than does a history book.
 
Besides, the morality you describe is completely void of significance. From your view, a sociopath is not someone whose view of reality is distorted, but someone who views it more lucidly than the rest of us, as there's nothing more to it than fear of punishment, which is all a sociopath does feel in regards to morality. Furthermore, long contemplation shows that it leaves us without any reason to follow moral precepts in most situations. I ask you as I've asked you before, Why not kill if no one will know? Furthermore, morality is one of the most basic, inborn things a human feels. If it is the product of nothing more than blind processes (be they advantageous or not), then we have no reason to trust any intuition or even mental faculty we possess. As Alvin Plantinga has shown, that position leaves us doubting even the logic which you used to arrive at your naturalistic position. Is it really sound?

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Destinee replied...
Nov. 3, 2012 at 2:43 am

half.note:
 
Haha dude I didn't know you were an aunt! Babies are the BEST! Congrats :) I can't wait till my nephew is 4, God willing. :)
 
And LOL I don't even watch hockey. Or know the rules of the game. #ImmigrantProblems :P 
 
Ew shovelling. Yeah, where I am, it's just really, really chilly. Today I went to Timmy's and ordered an iced cap, and I seriously regretted it when I went back home. My fingers were like frozen. (Not really.) 
 
Imagine: 
 
OHHH the dude who wrote that book that Miley Cyrus was in!!! My bad . :P
 
And HAHAHAH that made me laugh so hard. Ontario probably isn't a good way to see Canada, you know, considering how close to the States it is :P I've only been to two provinces (Ontario and Quebec) though, so I really am the worst Canadian ever :) 

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Destinee replied...
Nov. 3, 2012 at 2:46 am

Breece: 
 
I agree with Collin on this one. Even if morality originated as something to do with group dynamics, that is certainly not what we refer to when we speak of morality nowadays. So unless like basically everyone in existence is deluded into perceiving a moral code's existence, I doubt a simple evolutionary explanation is enough. (Especially when said evolutionary explanation ignores what morality is itself considered to be.) 

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Nov. 3, 2012 at 11:36 am

TO COLLIN: Well, often what I hear is a lot about being good because you'll be rewarded when you die, but shouldn't religion encourage being kind for the sake of being kind and not just for eternal reward? So sometimes I wonder if people do kind things just for the sake of being rewarded in an afterlife. I sure hope not, but the question can't help but appear.

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CollinF replied...
Nov. 3, 2012 at 1:47 pm

to Athena:
 
The idea is that people will be rewarded because they behaved morally, not that they should behave morally because they will be rewarded. The Bible certainly shows that intentions matter to God. 
 
Furthermore, the afterlife is more a purification of ones soul than just an eternal frat party. We mustn't forget that now is connected to eternity and part of the process. Every decision we make has effects on who we are now, which affects who we will be for eternity. 
 
Finally, morality for the Abrahamic religions has its basis in God Himself. This means that kindness, mercy, love, purity, etc. are not merely concepts man has constructed to live by, but the basis of the universe itself. It's love as much as inertia that makes our planet spin. We live morally because it's how we were meant to live: it's why the universe was made. Sure, it makes us happy now and for eternity, but it also aligns us with the core of reality. 
 
Personally, I would still be packing shoe boxes for Samaritan's Purse even if there was no eternal reward, and I'd venture to guess I speak for Franklin Graham too.

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DynamoThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Nov. 3, 2012 at 2:32 pm

Lol Collin, you have a way of confusing people:p Breece: Buddy you've confused the speck of me. At one place its morality, then evil, then suffering, then error and lapses....... Phew, I feel like takin' a break. Is there any nice place in Central Europe? And yeah, there is another book you oughta read and that is the Reconstruction of Religious Thoughts in Islam by Allama Iqbal. Just kiddin'. At this stage I guess we've boarded you up with a lot of books, so you will possess that propensity to kill the heck of anyone who suggests another book.:p (an example of Woodhouse's meiosis- don't take it in the biological sense- frankly speaking:p)

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Destinee replied...
Nov. 3, 2012 at 4:08 pm

Athena: 
 
Pardon my butting in, but I just wanted to add to what Collin said.
 
Firstly, I agree with you that being moral for the sake of morality is better than being moral for the sake of a reward (if the latter can be considered moral, of which I am not sure). But we ought to acknowledge that not everyone is on the same level when it comes to spirituality. People often treat spirituality as if one day they decide to be spiritual, and boom! they start being good people. But we have to work hard at being good people, just like a person has to exercise to be fit. There are no shortcuts in spirituality. 
 
Even otherwise, there is a natural progression. Some people are born wise (I wish I was one of them!), but some people acquire wisdom with age and experience. Like a child who at first only obeys her parents out of fear of punishment ("If you eat the cookies you're going to be grounded Tommy!") to eventually obeying them out of love and fear of their disapproval  ("If you do drugs I'll be very disappointed in you, Tommy"), a person finds themselves at different levels with regards to morality itself.
 
So doing good for reward (or to avoid punishment) is for those who have begun their spiritual journey, and are working their way upwards towards a more noble path. There is nothing to be ashamed of doing good to get to Heaven, as long as we recognise that there are better states that we should aspire towards. In fact, it is very much rational to obey a Being who could pretty much make your eternal life H.ell if you disobey Him :)  
 
Let's remember that Heaven and H.ell are reflections of intentions. If my intention is to obey God for all eternity, then if life was infinite (with no afterlife as a reward), I would still obey and love Him. Similarly, if my intention is to be swayed by what are considered the more lowly passions of this world, then if I was given an eternity, I would still continue on the same path.
 
Hence, Heaven and H.ell are just giving us what we would do, anyways. The Qur'an says of the disbelievers in H.ell:
 
"And they will cry out therein, "Our Lord, remove us; we will do righteousness - other than what we were doing!" But did We not grant you life enough for whoever would remember therein to remember, and the warner had come to you? So taste [the punishment], for there is not for the wrongdoers any helper.
 
Indeed, God is Knower of the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and earth. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts.
 
It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be [the consequence of] his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss." (Q:35:37-39)
 
There's another verse somewhere which I can't find, which essentially says that the disbelievers will ask for 'another chance' at life to do good deeds, and God will say that they would just repeat their old patterns of disbelief. 
 
And lastly (sorry for the length!), people often do kind things for the sake of reward. But again, there are better states...
 
Cheers :)

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Nov. 3, 2012 at 4:22 pm

To Collin and Destinee: 
 
Thanks guys. I've never actually read the Bible or anything like that, because I'm not religious, and it's always great to get people's thoughts, and to have issues like this cleared up. :)

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Nov. 3, 2012 at 5:58 pm

 
Imagine:
 
Oh, Alberta is lovely.
Though you probably shouldn’t trust my word on it since I’m a born and raised Albertan and probably biased. :)
 
But, I really do think that Alberta is quite exceptional. It’s known as the “Texas of the North” because of our abundant supply of oil and rednecks (the latter of which is unfortunately not as useful as the former). We’ve got a great economy (at the moment) and you can walk into pretty much any store/business and they’ll give you a job. We also have no Provincial Tax (PST) while our neighbours to the west pay something in the area of 8% (plus the nation-wide tax of 5%) for anything they buy.
 
And the mountains are be-a-u-ti-ful! The Rockies are just superb. During the summer we only have to drive a couple hours to see some of the most gorgeous scenery on the continent. My dad, my sister, and I always go back-packing in the Rockies. We will spend anywhere from 2+ days in the wilderness, hiking from one campsite to the next, carrying all we need in backpacks. It’s an amazing experience (though not as popular as you’d think). Anyways, Canada (particularly Alberta and B.C.) has some of the best back-packing trails in the world.
Canada has so much space and fresh-air—it’s fantastic!
But since we’re so far up north the weather can get drastic. It can go from being +30 in the summer to -30 in the winter (note: these temperatures are in Celsius and not Fahrenheit because we Canadians are actually sensible—I mean seriously, why on earth is 32 degrees freezing? 0 degrees being the freezing point makes way more sense!).
 
Oh, and another thing I really love about Alberta: we don’t have any rats! :)
That’s right, those pesky rodents don’t reside here. We’ve successfully kept them out of our province.
 
 
 
Destinee:
 
No hockey!??
How did you even get into our country!??
 
Haha, just kidding. :P
 
I’m actually not too much of a hockey fan myself, but I do have an appreciation for the sport.
 
Just please tell me that you at least know who Wayne Gretzky is!??
 
Well, either way, at least you go to Timmy’s (and actually call it that), so we probably won’t throw you out of the country. :)
 
 
And you won’t have to wait long before your nephew is four. Trust me, they grow up fast. Enjoy it while you can.
 
I actually saw my nephew in church today and he greeted me with his usual enthusiastic, “Aunty Bess!”
So. Cute.
He sat with me and my sister for a while, being his typical adorable self.
I just love that kid. And I love that I’m his favourite aunt. <3
 
 
Anyways, I’ve probably gone on about Canada and aunthood long enough. Sorry, readers, for any boredom I may have caused you. It’s over now. Have a great rest of your day. :D

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Nov. 3, 2012 at 6:09 pm

 
Athena:
 
Just as an addition to what Collin and Destinee said, it isn't the afterlife we worry about.
 
Even if it was, our actions alone wouldn't get us anywhere.
For Christians, it is faith in Jesus that ensures you are saved. Works come as a result of this faith.
 
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
 
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17)
 
God bless. <3

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Nov. 4, 2012 at 9:42 am

To HalfNote: Like I said, I've never read the Bible, so it's nice to have questions cleared up.

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DynamoThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Nov. 4, 2012 at 11:26 am

Yeah, half.note, for a guy who thinks kids are not angels your post got a tad boring:D I rarely like kids, but when I do, it means a treat. Otherwise, I have my own attitude:p

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