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Destinee replied...
Sept. 13, 2012 at 3:32 am

Breece: 
 
Okay, I see the Jesus thing you mean. I remember having discussed this several times before with people [Christians] on this forum. I MAY even have discussed it with you, haha (as a Muslim, of course). I'll find links (remove spaces):
 
teenink.c om/forums?act=post&topic_id=19&thread_id=58143#reply1086930
 
And: 
 
teenink.c
om/forums?act=post&topic_id=19&thread_id=59053&page=9#reply1185090
 
Both are somewhat relevant. To answer directly though:
 
- Israelites sacrificed their animals (and let's remember than Jesus dying for our sins is likening him to an ANIMAL) at the altar in the Holy Temple. This is precisely why they don't sacrifice animals anymore (Holy Temple having been destroyed). Jesus did not die at the altar. 
 
- Israelites had to kill their own animals. Their animals had to be in near-perfect conditions at the time. Jesus (very unfortunately) was beaten, had a crown of thorns, etc etc. He was not unscarred. 
 
- Israelites sacrificed animals for giving thanks, childbirth, etc etc, as well as for a symbol of repentance. This is also why Israelites didn't pick up someone else's sheep and sacrifice it -- the point was to sacrifice your OWN animal, which obviously requires a bit of self-sacrifice (since animals = farm labour and the like). Jesus wasn't anybody's animal (I am happy to report). 
 
- Animal sacrifices are no longer necessary for repentance, because there is no Temple. 
 
- Saying that all animal sacrifices were pointing towards Jesus' coming and eventual death needs Biblical proof. Could someone please give me Biblical proof that is NOT in the New Testament, but in the OT? 
 
- Animal sacrifices that were sin offerings also required to actually follow the Law, otherwise it was hypocrisy. e.g.:
 
 
"With what shall I come before the Lord
    and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
    with calves a year old?
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
    with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
    the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
    And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly[a] with your God." (Micah 6:6-8)
 
- Try remembering that I was a Muslim, not a Christian or J.ew. So I do apologise if any of the above is incorrect or offensive. 
 
As for the slavery thing, Breece: Yes, that is more like what we're describing (kinda). So if you think of slavery (as Half.note and I describe it) as servanthood, so be it. Your definition of slavery is what I call "oppression". Servanthood for me is paid labour, that need not require giving your servant food, shelter, etc (slavery requires that, but perhaps not pay itself). It's just semantics. 
 
Cheers.

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Destinee replied...
Sept. 13, 2012 at 4:19 am

Oh last but not least:
 
There is a very evident difference between killing an animal and killing a human...

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Destinee replied...
Sept. 13, 2012 at 4:25 am

Breece: 
 
You said: "Convince me.. b) My s.exuality should not priority over believing so-and-so"
 
Me: Your s.exuality is secondary. What matters is the logic behind accepting your s.exuality. ie, does consent and self-determination (or self-destruction) matter more to you or does obedience and gratefulness to God (presumably a moral God)? Assuming that by 'belief' you mean "Christian/Islamic belief involving h.om.ose.xual acts being sinful".
 
I understand you totally on the bias thing :D Totally agree there. My biases are driving me nuts nuts nuts!

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 13, 2012 at 4:38 pm

Half.note:
 
Welp, there's Destinee's stuff about Jesus.  My admiration of your response will be based on how long you manage to hold out, I think I got through maybe 3 or 4 of these huge posts before I gave up. ;)
 
 

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm

Destinee:
 
Guess that's true, trying to figure out how to not turn this into a classical religious debate about h.omosexuality, we've already had plenty of those.  
 
I guess my decisions whether I find the evidence supporting any particular religion enough to justify completely suppressing my feelings and personality.  That's not something anyone can really tell me though, more of a personal thing.
 
Sigh, no way to do this without jumping into a run-of-the-mill religious debate on h.omosexuality.

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Destinee replied...
Sept. 13, 2012 at 5:18 pm

Breece: 
 
Haha, well, I'm not as invested in defending Jesus' non-godliness anymore. So I dunno if my posts will even be that long.
 
As for the religious debate, since I am a deist/agnostic of a Muslim turn, or maybe a Muslim of an agnostic turn (which may not even be possible, haha), you definitely won't have one of those with me. 
 
Regarding "suppression", I guess a more religious person could say: Is there enough evidence for them to suppress their inner desire to be closer to God? 
 
It is a deeper question though, and that is whether a person can accept that God exists, but that He is immoral, i.e. does morality play a part in accepting an Abrahamic religion or should a person discard secular morality when evaluating religions?

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 13, 2012 at 6:04 pm

Destinee:
 
That's a good question, does what you feel is "right' have any stance on the legitmacy of what "God" says is "right"?  I think that's hard to answer.  
 
That's a really good question actually, you perfectly articulated my thoughts there :D
 
I'd have to say it does have an impact right now, after all, aren't we supposed to have intrinsic morality?  Paul even uses intrinsic morality as an argument for why living where there was no mention of God is not an excuse for being a non-believer.  I think it can work in this way.
To Everyone:
 
I'd like to extend Destinee's question to anyone else who might have the patience to still be following this thread:
 
Does what we feel is rigth have any say in the legitimacy of what God says is right?
 
Thanks!

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savetheplanet replied...
Sept. 14, 2012 at 11:03 pm

Wow, I know I keep telling you guys I'm back and that I'll be more active, I get caught up in school and I forget about it for a few weeks.
 
LOL, the new question sounds like some of the things we've been discussing in my philosophy class at school.
Yes and no.  Obviously not everything that anyone has ever felt has had legitimacy in terms of what God says.  But I tend to think that for the majority of people, the conscience that we have that tells us the very basis of right and wrong is a gift from God.  And therefore, it would indeed have some legitimacy.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 15, 2012 at 9:07 pm

 
 
“Needs more controversy”…
^ Breece, I have a feeling you won’t be happy until we’ve started WWIII.
 
Anyways, I finally have time to post and I’ve decided to break it into the four topics that have been discussed in my absence:
1.  Ellen White
2.  Animal sacrifices and Jesus
3.  H.omosexuality
4.  Human morality vs. God’s morality
 
1)  I laughed when I read that Mormon comparison, Breece.
So I don't think you have to worry; I'm not offended.
I can see where you get that idea, but we’re quite different from Mormonism. From what I understand, Mormons have a leader which they consider a prophet. But Ellen White was never the leader of the Adventist church.
Also, she never says anything that contradicts the Bible, and we don't add her writings to the Bible as extra scripture like Mormons do. We just believe that she was given "the Spirit of Prophecy".
Look her up on Wikipedia, they give a very unbiased account.
 
2)  Haha, thanks for the vote of confidence, Breece. :P
 
Okay, Destinee, let’s see how well I do.
 
- To say that animal sacrifices pointed forward to Jesus’ death on the cross isn’t quite the same as comparing him to an animal. I think it was Archy who said it in that first link: Jesus was innocent and blameless, just like a lamb. He had never sinned, and yet he would bear the consequence of sin regardless.
- We have to be careful that we aren’t too literal. Of course a real man dying on a cross is much different than an animal dying on an altar, but the animal sacrifices were symbolic of Jesus’ sacrifice.
- And yes, altars were erected and animals sacrificed at other times. (When Noah came off the ark, is one example.) But in the sanctuary that God directed them to build, the only sacrifices were for sins.
- The lambs had to be without blemish because it symbolized the perfection of Jesus. It wasn’t the physical condition of Jesus when he died that was important, it was the moral perfection that mattered.
- The reason that animal sacrifices are no longer necessary is not because there is no temple, but because Jesus fulfilled the reason and the hope behind the sacrifices. In fact, when Jesus died, the curtain in the temple suddenly ripped in two: “And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.  And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.” (Mark 15: 37-38)
Jesus now had victory over sin. This was complete when he was raised from the dead three days later. He proved that man can be sinless. Now if we believe in him and repent our sins on him, like the Israelites did with their sacrifices, we can be saved.
- And sorry, Destinee, I couldn’t find an Old Testament verse that directly said that Jesus would come to fulfill the sacrifices, which is annoying because I’m 90% sure that I read a verse like that very recently, but now I can’t find it. Anyways, here are some interesting verses I did find:
 
“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29)
 ^ John the Baptist recognized that Jesus was “the Lamb of God”, and that he would be the sacrifice that would bear our sins.
 
“For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” (Hebrews 9:26-28)
 ^ “Must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world”: this is pointing out that since the beginning of this world and the beginning of sin, Jesus has been the sacrifice for our sins. During the Israelites’ time he had not yet come, but it was always God’s plan, and their animal sacrifices showed their faith in it.
 
3)  Usually I try to avoid debates about h.omosexuality, but I’ll say something here.
I agree with Destinee.
Our choice of beliefs (especially in Christianity) should take precedent over are human wants (and even “needs”). This will tie into my next topic about human morals…
 
4)  I'm going to let the following Bible verses speak very clearly on what my view is:
 
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
 
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)
 
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 
Their feet are swift to shed blood: 
Destruction and misery are in their ways: 
And the way of peace have they not known: 
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:10-23)
 
Humans are sinful. Everything we are inclined to do is contrary to God.
My dad always tells me: “Anything that is easy and you think is right to do… Do the opposite.”
 
Of course, that doesn’t mean God can’t give us convictions to do right. He can impress upon us his will. But these will always be the opposite of what our human nature feels is right.
He has promised to show us what is right if we are willing to follow him:
 
“I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.” (Psalms 32:8)
 
“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:5-9)
 
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)
 
God bless. <3
 

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 16, 2012 at 12:12 am

Destinee:
 
I'm just going to hi-jack Breece's thread very briefly to mention a completely unrelated topic...
 
 
 
*glances around secretively*
 
 
 
*about to whisper*
 
 
 
*then screams excitedly*
YOU'RE A CANADIAN, TOO!!!!!!!!!
 
 
I seriously had no idea until recently, which is weird since I normally have a sixth sense when it comes to figuring out who's Canadian and who's not.
(Okaaaaay, I admit the sixth sense is just being snoopy and looking at people's profiles, but still.)
 
 
I live in Alberta. What about you?
(By the way: If you don't want to tell me, you don't have to; I'll understand if you want to keep it private. But I'm just excited at finding another Canadian to talk to. :D )

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savetheplanet replied...
Sept. 16, 2012 at 8:32 pm

halfnote:
 
I'm not really going to go into the first three topics either because I agree with you, like #2, don't much about it, #1, or don't want to go into an overly discussed topic like #3.  But #4 is very interesting.
 
Much of what you've said and the verses you've pointed out give the impression that you think humans are inherently evil.  Now correct me if I'm wrong on that, but that was my impression.  But when God made Adam and Eve, they were not evil but pure in the beginning.  It was only until they ate from the tree of knowledge that sin entered the world.  And yet, eating from the tree of knowledge did not make humans evil.
"Then the Lord God said: See!  The man has become one of us, knowing good and evil!" (Genesis 4: 22)
So although eating from the tree of knowledge was a sin against God, it didn't make Adam and Eve evil but gave them a conscience to know right from wrong.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 16, 2012 at 11:51 pm

 
savetheplanet:
 
No, you’re not wrong: I do believe humans are inherently evil.
 
Read these verses about the fall of man:
“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.” (Genesis 3:2-7)
 
^ It was Satan’s lie that “ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” This didn’t happen, but what did happen was what God had promised: “for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
^^ Also, after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they realized they were naked. They had sinned, and now the human race was corrupted.
 
Here is what the Bible commentator, John Gill, says about the verse you quoted (which is actually Genesis 3:22, not 4:22).
 
“[This] is generally understood as an irony or sarcasm at man's deception by Satan, who promised man, and he expected to be as gods, knowing good and evil; behold the man, see how much like a god he looks, with his coat of skin upon his back, filled with shame and confusion for his folly, and dejected under a sense of what he had lost, and in a view of what he was sentenced to; yet must be understood not as rejoicing in man's misery, and insulting over him in it, but in order the more to convince him of his folly, and the more to humble him, and bring him to a more open repentance for affecting what he did, and giving credit to the devil in it: though I rather think they are seriously spoken, since this was after man was brought to a sense of the evil he committed, and to repentance for it, and had had the promised seed revealed to him as a Saviour, and, as an emblem of justification and salvation by him, was clothed with garments provided by God himself: wherefore the words are to be considered either as a declaration of his present state and condition, in and by Christ, by whose righteousness he was made righteous, even as he is righteous, though he had lost his own; to whose image he was conformed, now bearing the image of the heavenly One, though he was deprived of that in which he was created, having sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and was now restored to friendship and amity with God, favoured with his gracious presence, and having faith and hope of being with him for evermore; the eyes of his understanding were enlightened by the Spirit and grace of God, to know the good things which God had provided for him in Christ, and in the covenant of grace, a better covenant than that under which he was made, and which he had broke; and to know the evil nature of sin, its just demerit, and the atonement of it, by the death and sacrifice of the promised seed: or else the words are a declaration of man's past state and condition, and may be rendered, "behold, the man was as one of us"; as one of the Persons in the Deity, as the Son of God, after whose image, and in whose likeness, he was made; both as to his body, that being formed according to the idea of the body of Christ in the divine mind, and which was not begotten, but made out of the virgin earth; and as to his soul, which was created in righteousness and holiness, in wisdom and knowledge, and was like him in the government he had over all the creatures: and besides, he was in many things a type of Christ, a figure of him that was to come; especially in his being a federal head to his posterity, and in his offices of prophet, priest, and King; and being created in knowledge, after the image of him that created him, and having the law of God inscribed on his heart, he knew what was good and to be done, and what was evil and to be avoided: but now he was in a different condition, in other circumstances, had lost the image of God, and friendship with him, and his government over the creatures; and had ruined himself, and all his posterity, and was become unholy and unwise; for being tempted by Satan to eat of the forbidden fruit, under an expectation of increasing his knowledge, lost in a great measure what he had.”
 
Besides, what proof is there that man is good? How do you explain all those verses I quoted? Don’t they speak clearly about the state of man?
 
Anyways, I appreciate that you wanted to discuss this, and I apologize if I’m being at all rude. < But perhaps that will help prove my point. ;)
 
God bless. <3

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 17, 2012 at 6:01 am

Oh man, I've took too much time away from this.
 
Well, over the weekend I came out to my mother, and she pretty much said everything that I would expect CollinF to say, they're very alike.  She said that most people do go through a phase where they feel h.omosexual, she said her brother had done that even.  Now that I had someone to talk with in real life, I don't feel as tense about it anymore.  
 
My mom made a noteworthy statement during all this:  It's okay to doubt and to think about God, as long as you make the right decision.  
 
I think I now re-consider myself an open-minded Christian again.  
 
Now on to specifics:
 
Savetheplanet and Half.notes Discussion:
 
I'm not sure if man is inherently evil, I think evil was the marriage between Satan's temptation and Man's wrong decision.  I mean, Jesus was a man, yet he was completely sinless.  I think maybe we're inherently tempted by Satan, since he's everywhere.  I'm not sure if we're inherently evil persay though.
 
Half.note: 
 
lol, yeah, I get a sick kick out of philosophical debates :P
 
1)  Ah, I see they're not exactly the same.  It still follows the principle that prophets still exist today though.  I think the majority of Christians don't believe in modern prophets at all though.  
 
2) Well good luck with that :P
 
3) I'm not too concerned about this anymore, as the first part of this post explains.
 
4) Responded to this above as well.

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 17, 2012 at 6:02 am

Oh man, I've took too much time away from this.
 
Well, over the weekend I came out to my mother, and she pretty much said everything that I would expect CollinF to say, they're very alike.  She said that most people do go through a phase where they feel h.omosexual, she said her brother had done that even.  Now that I had someone to talk with in real life, I don't feel as tense about it anymore.  
 
My mom made a noteworthy statement during all this:  It's okay to doubt and to think about God, as long as you make the right decision.  
 
I think I now re-consider myself an open-minded Christian again.  
 
Now on to specifics:
 
Savetheplanet and Half.notes Discussion:
 
I'm not sure if man is inherently evil, I think evil was the marriage between Satan's temptation and Man's wrong decision.  I mean, Jesus was a man, yet he was completely sinless.  I think maybe we're inherently tempted by Satan, since he's everywhere.  I'm not sure if we're inherently evil persay though.
 
Half.note: 
 
lol, yeah, I get a sick kick out of philosophical debates :P
 
1)  Ah, I see they're not exactly the same.  It still follows the principle that prophets still exist today though.  I think the majority of Christians don't believe in modern prophets at all though.  
 
2) Well good luck with that :P
 
3) I'm not too concerned about this anymore, as the first part of this post explains.
 
4) Responded to this above as well.

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Sept. 17, 2012 at 3:24 pm

Breece:
 
Wow, you're really brave to come out and tell your mom. But it seems like it worked out. I'm happy for you! :D
 
Your mom seem very wise, and I'm biasedly glad that you're back to Christianity.
 
Anyways, I'll reply to all this other stuff later, since I'm at school right now and I don't have my handy-dandy Bible program on this computer.
So I'll post again soon.

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C.N.Red replied...
Sept. 17, 2012 at 5:15 pm

Hey Breece! I know you're going through your own searching now, and I wanted to help you.
If you're worried about h.om.o s.exu.ality, here's my answer; when you lie, you know you're lying, right? But God forgives you. So when you're h.om.o s.exua.l, you know you're disobeying God. It's like lying, I guess, but either way, God forgives you.
The only way to go to hell is to not believe. Or at least that's what we as Christians believe. Catholics are more strict, like "YOU MUST DO (BLANK) TO GO TO HEAVEN OR YOU DIE IN H.E.L.L!!!!!"
I'm not like that. :)

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CollinF replied...
Sept. 18, 2012 at 6:26 pm

I agree with Halfnote. A very wise woman. :)

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savetheplanet replied...
Sept. 18, 2012 at 8:05 pm

halfnote:
 
No of course you're not begin rude!  I always like a good debate.  I apologize for the considerable lack of effort on my part, but I have so little free time it makes it hard.
 
The few verses that you posted I think are taken out of context.  The verses from John about the devil being your father were spoken to the J.e.w.s as a rebuke for their disbelief in him.  Jesus did not however mean it for all people but was trying to correct the corruption of the J.e.w.ish state.
Again, the verses from Romans is a rebuke to  demonstrate the infidelity of the J.e.w.s.  All humans share the common burden of sin, but it is not our natural state.
And the rest of the verses just basically say that you need to follow Jesus to be saved.
I'm sorry that I don' t have the time to look for counterverses but I don't believe any of your verses prove man is inherently evil but merely that he can be corrupted by sin.  Humans still are made in God's image and therefore have a great capacity for good as well as evil.

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CollinF replied...
Sept. 18, 2012 at 9:53 pm

to Liz:
 
I've come to realize that people have two layers. Deep down, they are the beautiful creations of God that make me wonder at how awesome they are. But on the surface they're pretty gross. Even the most saintly of people have their vices. No one is safe from the corruption of sin. No one. The nicest guy I know smokes weed and curses frequently. C.S. Lewis was freakishly sadomasochistic. Martin Luther hated J.ews. 
 
In the battle between good and evil within every man's soul, good is always on the defensive. If we relax, we sin more often. It's not that man is inherently deprived so much as that he's inherently good, but infected with a disease that's  not too easy to deal with. 
 
Which leads me to my motto concerning people: "Ya can't help but love em, but it's impossible to like em."

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savetheplanet replied...
Sept. 18, 2012 at 10:51 pm

Collin:
Haha hey! :)  And yes, everyone has two sides and no one is perfect.  I almost feel like the fact that it's so easy to sin is better than if it were hard.  Then if you do good it's actually sincere because it's harder to do so.  Not that I like the bad things that happen, but it makes you appreciate the good a whole lot more.

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