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Why is(are) God(s) Omnipotent

Kenrichi replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 7:12 pm

Breece: I wasn't going to but I'll play. You're thinking too logically for talking about someone who would defy logic. Saying that a god would even need logic is in itself is illogical. I can't use spaces on my iPad so bear with me. There is nothing in the middle unless you want to count angels (the other not omnipotent beings) and I feel as though you wouldn't want to count them, and if you don't want to then dismissing everything won't come to any resolution. Without His Word (or any omnipotent beings) word, we do not know, because it would be dismissed as I saw in your earlier post as unfactual or illogical (again, why would a God need logic other then to use logic itself as a tool?). No, it is not human hubris. It would take power to create someone(thing) out of nothing with power. The mere fact that that person had power and no one else could have done that (and if I'm wrong tell me someone's name that you know of) he is therefore all-powerful. He's all-knowing automatically since he made everything, because you made an invention you would know it works, and if you wrote a book you could tell me everything that happened in that book. Omnipresence I can't say much about that without His Word, but I can say this, a spirit is not bound by these physical limitations. Ultimately though if you don't accept that there is a God, then the debate won't ever have a ending till one side gets bored. Because you will argue that everything is illogical to exist. I'm finish :D.

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 7:16 pm

Random:
 
First problem is that if there are two omnipotent entities than neither are truly omnipotent because they have no effect on each other.
 
Also you're suggesting that God is bound by time just like we are.  That's also suggesting God is not all powerful.  God cannot be from the Past because he is timeless, he created time.  Time is merely a dimension, albeit one that we humans have a hard time comprehending because of our lack of freedom to move in it.  
 
If God is truly all powerful, there would be no future God, no past God, because that would require him to change.  Why would an all powerful being change?  It even says in the Bible God never changes.  
 
God cannot be temporal.  However he cannot be all-powerful because all-powerfullness is a logical contradiction.  If he's all powerful why can't he create something else that's all powerful?  If you say he can then he would no longer be all powerful because he shares that with something else.  If you say he can't then he is limited.  If you say he can but won't he is still limited because he can't really do it then.  

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 7:24 pm

Kenichi:
 
If God is not bound by logic, then we truly no nothing about him other than what he tells us.
 
How do we know he's not a tyrannous monster who's playing with us like some kind of sick toyset?  
 
The problem with what you're saying is that this universe operates on logic, logic is a concept based on physics primarily.  If God does not follow by any "laws" or "normalities" we know then how do we know anything about any of his attributes other than his "word".
 
We're completely dependent on God to know whether he is all powerful or even morally just.
 
Think of it like this:  I'm a modern day man from America, and I go out to a tribal African camp that knows absolutely nothing of the outside world.  They don't understand physics, chemistry, nothing that I know.  Everything I do and say is magic to them, I am a God to them.  I defy logic itself to them (sound familliar)
 
How do we know God is not merely something we do not understand, rather than an all powerful being.  How do we know we're not just frightened cavemen way out of our league who know nothing about anything and assume that he has to be all powerful in order to do things we can't explain?
 
The problem is we can't do that.  We can't know for sure.  Believing in him despite that possibility is not  some kind of thing that is required to be morally acceptable.  Would you think that it would only be right for Tribal cavemen to believe in the hypothetical modern man?  I see no reason it should be required to believe in him.  He could be lying.
 
How do we know God's not lying other than what he says to us.  And how do we know we're not just putting our loved one's in danger by encouraging belief in him when we know nothing about him.
 
That's my problem.

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 7:26 pm

C. N. Red:
 
I understand what you're saying, but that's really not the question I was asking.  If you need more elaboration let me know!  
 
Thanks for replying regardless!  You too Kenichi, forgot to put that in my post to you :P

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 7:27 pm

P.S.
 
Just re-read your name, it's Kenrichi, my bad!

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Kenrichi replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 8:16 pm

Breece: It's ok I actually kinda like that name lol. I agree with you 100%, without His Word we know absolutely nothing about Him. That's why He gave us His Word. But if His Words are a lie and he is tyrranous then that 100% did not disprove there is a god(don't get me wrong though, this is just for the debate, I do believe he's a loving Creator). In fact the implication you used is just that he could be a liar. If there is a god subtract being perfect from him, and he definitely is still all-powerful (since he made us, that's proof enough for that) because being morally just and being powerful are not synonymous to each other. In your analogy the only reason why it doesn't fully fit with this situation is because if they severed your head, we both can agree you wouldn't live. But if we were in the presence of a god, we could attempt stabbing him but a god that is all-powerful would just kill you on the spot; however I will give you this, in your analogy, to the Africans with your knowledge you would definitely appear all-knowing. I'm so glad you said this though, "The problem is we can't do that. We can't know for sure." We cannot prove nor disprove he is morally just or not (not without believing His Word, because without His Word it would be even more illogical to have a relationship with Him). And if I take that quote further you can't know whether or not he exist or not, that's why it takes a leap of faith(not to mention the right religion, but this parenthesis doesn't concern the debate). By the way Breece I must apologize, I almost thought you were impolite, that's why I didn't post sooner, but I enjoy debating with you.

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 8:30 pm

Kenrichi:
 
Thanks :D  I don't know if you've seen my posts before I came back recently but I used to be a pretty devout Christian actually, that mindset has persisted regardless of my beliefs so I still try to be polite.
 
Anyways, on to the topic at hand:
 
The analogy doesn't have to be exactly similar, for instance you say that the Tribesmen could kill him to try, but say he had a gun and merely shot him.
 
The point you're making is that the Tribesmen could test the man to see if he was in fact a God.  However this is not the case with us, we cannot test God because it's in debate whether he even exists, there's no physical being so there's nothing to test.
 
Just because we can't test it doesn't mean it's not true though.  Like I said, the analogy doesn't have to be perfect.  He could still be much more powerful than we could ever imagine, but that doesn't mean he's an all-powerful omni-present being that knows everything.  How do we know there's not any room between Humans and God for something powerful enough we can't understand it but still not a God.
 
Also, that's what I'm saying though, according to a lot of beliefs, it's considered morally wrong to not believe in God.  How does this make sense though if he could be lying?
 
How does having faith translate into morality?  
 
I have faith in my door that the locks won't allow a murderer to sneak in and kill me at night.  Does that mean I'd be morally wrong if I didn't have faith in them?
 
What I'm saying is that a lot of religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism to name a few) are basically believing in God because he says so.  Not because it's anymore right to believe in God, but out of selfishness, out of the desire to preserve themselves for eternity in the even he is real.  He could be a cruel, horrible being and yet still be powerful enough to send us all into everlasting torture for all we know.  At that point Theists are merely giving up and submissing to a Tyrannt, I don't see the morality in that.
 
You're really great to debate with too, thanks for replying!

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 8:30 pm

Kenrichi:
 
Thanks :D  I don't know if you've seen my posts before I came back recently but I used to be a pretty devout Christian actually, that mindset has persisted regardless of my beliefs so I still try to be polite.
 
Anyways, on to the topic at hand:
 
The analogy doesn't have to be exactly similar, for instance you say that the Tribesmen could kill him to try, but say he had a gun and merely shot him.
 
The point you're making is that the Tribesmen could test the man to see if he was in fact a God.  However this is not the case with us, we cannot test God because it's in debate whether he even exists, there's no physical being so there's nothing to test.
 
Just because we can't test it doesn't mean it's not true though.  Like I said, the analogy doesn't have to be perfect.  He could still be much more powerful than we could ever imagine, but that doesn't mean he's an all-powerful omni-present being that knows everything.  How do we know there's not any room between Humans and God for something powerful enough we can't understand it but still not a God.
 
Also, that's what I'm saying though, according to a lot of beliefs, it's considered morally wrong to not believe in God.  How does this make sense though if he could be lying?
 
How does having faith translate into morality?  
 
I have faith in my door that the locks won't allow a murderer to sneak in and kill me at night.  Does that mean I'd be morally wrong if I didn't have faith in them?
 
What I'm saying is that a lot of religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism to name a few) are basically believing in God because he says so.  Not because it's anymore right to believe in God, but out of selfishness, out of the desire to preserve themselves for eternity in the even he is real.  He could be a cruel, horrible being and yet still be powerful enough to send us all into everlasting torture for all we know.  At that point Theists are merely giving up and submissing to a Tyrannt, I don't see the morality in that.
 
You're really great to debate with too, thanks for replying!

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 8:30 pm

Kenrichi:
 
Thanks :D  I don't know if you've seen my posts before I came back recently but I used to be a pretty devout Christian actually, that mindset has persisted regardless of my beliefs so I still try to be polite.
 
Anyways, on to the topic at hand:
 
The analogy doesn't have to be exactly similar, for instance you say that the Tribesmen could kill him to try, but say he had a gun and merely shot him.
 
The point you're making is that the Tribesmen could test the man to see if he was in fact a God.  However this is not the case with us, we cannot test God because it's in debate whether he even exists, there's no physical being so there's nothing to test.
 
Just because we can't test it doesn't mean it's not true though.  Like I said, the analogy doesn't have to be perfect.  He could still be much more powerful than we could ever imagine, but that doesn't mean he's an all-powerful omni-present being that knows everything.  How do we know there's not any room between Humans and God for something powerful enough we can't understand it but still not a God.
 
Also, that's what I'm saying though, according to a lot of beliefs, it's considered morally wrong to not believe in God.  How does this make sense though if he could be lying?
 
How does having faith translate into morality?  
 
I have faith in my door that the locks won't allow a murderer to sneak in and kill me at night.  Does that mean I'd be morally wrong if I didn't have faith in them?
 
What I'm saying is that a lot of religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism to name a few) are basically believing in God because he says so.  Not because it's anymore right to believe in God, but out of selfishness, out of the desire to preserve themselves for eternity in the even he is real.  He could be a cruel, horrible being and yet still be powerful enough to send us all into everlasting torture for all we know.  At that point Theists are merely giving up and submissing to a Tyrannt, I don't see the morality in that.
 
You're really great to debate with too, thanks for replying!

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 8:31 pm

Sorry for the double post everybody, don't know why it does that sometimes.

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 8:31 pm

Oh wow, triple post, sometimes TI is really weird.

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 8:45 pm

I believe the reason we in general consider god to be omnipotent, omniscient, omni-etc... because, insofar, thats just been the definition of a god.  All religions, with few exceptions, consider their diety to be all power, all knowing, etc...
 
We do have definitions for plenty of spiritual beings that are not all-everything, being demi-god, demon, ghost, phantom, and many many more, but when youre talking about gods, the simple definitions implies an all powerful being.

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Aug. 25, 2012 at 9:10 pm

Sure. God could be a lying tyrannt. But look at it this way; if God is evil, then you probably have nothing to gain or lose from practicing religion. In fact, He might like you better if you belive His lies. However, if God is loving like the Bible says, then you definitely have something to gain from beliving Him. If you say that the chances are 50/50, then that's pretty good motivation to side with God. (Just following Christ because of logic won't save you, but if you stick with it long enough, you'll get a change of heart.)
Plus, if God were a tyrannt, then why would we feel any joy at all? Why not skip life and go straight to he.ll? 

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 9:13 pm

TheKing:
 
Ah, makes sense.  
 
At this point, it seems like the only solid thing we have to tell us that the Christian God is morally sound or even all powerful is pretty much we think is his Word.  
 
I have to say, I think I've turned from doubt to disbelief now.  I'd really like for someone to try and turn me back to be honest, guess that won't be coming from you though :P
 
To everyone else:
 
This thread is still active, and I'd very much appreciate more responses to it, but I think I'll make a new thread now, probably something along the lines of "I wanna be converted"  so if you just want to present a good argument for your religion I'd rather you take it to that thread instead.  
 
Thanks!

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 9:32 pm

Haha, yes... come to our side... we have cake!!

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 9:35 pm

Question for ya Breece, Ill post it here since I dont know if youre looking at the "To Imagine" thread.
 
Do you have the emails of the others on TI, namely Destinee or Collin?

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 25, 2012 at 9:36 pm

TheKing:
 
LIES, I PLAYED THAT GAME
 
There was cake after the credits though I suppose...

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half.noteThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 10:59 am

 
 
Man, I was gone for one day. ONE day, and I seemed to have completely missed all the best debating.
*sigh*
I'll guess I have to go back and see what I can do.
 
Dynamo:
I don’t know if you’ll end up reading this reply, but I thought I’d answer your question anyway.
It’s not really a matter of why God created us, because since we are already here, we know we have been created.
But if I was going to answer “why”, I’d have to say that it is because God is not temporal. He is living in the past, the present, and the future all at once. So he knew what was going to happen. He loves us and wanted to give us a chance at life, even though he knew we’d mess it up with sin.
 
Breece:
“Better things to do during the summer.”
*covers heart with hand*
I’m shocked. :O
What could be better than this?
 
Anyways, now I will answer your first objections:
1. This is kind of what I was saying. We don’t have the ability to imagine that there is an eternal being. I believe it, yet I still can’t quite grasp it. My perceptions are limited to the time flow in our world.
And you’re right, in the universe we know, something can’t come from nothing. Yet, here we are. Logically, we didn’t just come from nothing, no matter if we can imagine it or not. So there must be something eternal. Something that created us, or brought us out of nothing. And if this Being is eternal, he would likely be omnipresent, because we can see he is not bound by time, so he wouldn’t be bound by space. This Being would also be omnipotent because anything that can bring something into existence out of nothing is very powerful, if not all-powerful. And since he was intelligent enough to create us, then he would be omniscient because he would obviously have to know everything about us and what he created.
 
2. And, honestly, when I was writing my last post I thought, “I guess I’m making a lot of assumptions”. But I decided it was the best way to keep it simple.
And I kind of answered these questions in #1.
As for the topic of “perfect”, I agree that not everything goes perfectly. But the fact that the planets have orbits which aren’t colliding shows that it must be planned out. As for the trees and hearts: there are cases where the degradation of sin takes its toll. We must remember that it was human actions in the Garden of Eden and our actions today which results in these deaths. God had created it perfectly, but it was corrupted by sin. (But this is a completely different story, so I think we’ll move on.)
And I would define “perfect” as “without faults or defects” or “unfailing”. We have no control over the orbit of the planets, trees, or our hearts. But they continue to spin, grow, and beat. This shows that we were intelligently designed, and that something powerful is in control. The complexity of even the tiny snowflake shows that something omniscient created us.
 
Moving past this to other posts I saw:
In regard to the paradox of God creating something as powerful as himself, all I have to say is that God has limitations. But that doesn’t mean he’s not all-powerful and all-knowing. For instance, God is not capable of hate. Does that mean he’s not all-powerful or all-knowing? No. Because if he was capable of hate, that would make him imperfect. But God is perfect and loving and while he is capable of a lot, he is not capable of imperfection.
 
Also, you talked about the Bible being the only way that God teaches us about Him. I disagree.
Think of all the people who become Christians. The vast majority of them probably never read the Bible and thought, “Oh, now I know who God is, I better start obeying Him.” No. That never really happens. Most people who come to know God were either influenced by other people, or convicted by the Holy Spirit. God reveals Himself to man in many ways. Even in creation itself. Yes, the Bible gives words to God, but it is not the only evidence of Him.
 
Okay, this is turning into a novel, but I have one more thought to add:
I was explaining to Dynamo that God is not temporal. This is how he can be eternal. God is not moving along at the same pace as us; He is living in the past, present, and future all at once. That is one reason he is omniscient. For Him, we are being created, are living our lives, and have already been saved or lost, all in one moment. He knows what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen. This also makes him omnipresent and omnipotent.
 
Random:
I appreciate your reply. And I kind of answered this in my reply to Breece. But I’ll say it again: the degradation of sin.
And you might know this already, but I’m a literal creationist so I believe God created the world in six days, and rested on the seventh. So I disagree with you about the Big Bang.
 
Also, I don't think there is any chance of God being a tyrant. He is love, and the fact that He created us shows this love. His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence shows that he is perfect. And something that is perfect would not be tyrannical.
 
C.N. Red:
I don’t mean to be picky, but I disagree that Adam and Eve gained anything when they ate the fruit. They were sinning, and sin brings nothing but death. They didn’t gain any knowledge, but lost their lives. They realized they were naked, they began to blame each other, and became afraid of God. They were now sinners; they knew nothing more about God than they had before.
 
 
I hope I don't come across as rude or overly-opinionated. I actually enjoy discussing with you all.
God bless. <3

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 11:29 am

Half.note:
 
You didn't sound rude at all, very good reply, thanks!
 
So, this new change of pace seems to be hinging on a few misconceptions you have.
 
1) You said logically, something can't come from nothing.  Au Contraire, the law of conservation of matter (and energy) is null and void after you go down far enough.  There are things called "quantum fluctuations" that have recently been discovered, basically incredibly tiny amounts of matter (or energy if you will) are spontaneously appearing and then usually ahnihilating against their opposites (anti matter)  Here's a good link to do some more reading on it:
 
ht tp://e n.wikipedia.or g/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation
(remember to remove the spaces)
 
So my point is that we do not nearly know enough to reach the conclusions you're making.  You say that without God the creation doesn't make logical sense, but again that's just filling in the gaps with God.  You're just saying that this doesn't make sense so God must have done it. 
 
At this point the conversation becomes off topic and I would really prefer if you were to bring your reply to this part to my new thread "Convert Me"  thanks!
 
Back to the topic at hand:
 
I don't see how planets spinning and hearts beating prove any kind of perfection, who's to say it's not a coincidence, this is still just speculation.   Also the universe is not perfect, but you claim that sin made it that way, again that is only drawing from what you percieve to be God's word.  We have nothing but what he tells us.
 
I suppose the point I'm making with this whole thread is that we only have God to tell us that he's God.  And I don't see why we should believe that anymore than a caveman should believe that a modern man is a God (see my earlier analogy).  To be honest, I care about my loved ones, if I'm not sure whether God can be trusted then why should I encourage them to submit their souls to him?  I don't see what's so morally necessary about belief without evidence.
 
 
So, 

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Breece6 replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 11:30 am

The King:
 
Seems like you already got those emails, I went to bed so I didn't see your post in time.
 
Feel free to hit me up through Leafy!

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