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What I find to be the most convincing reason for the supernatural

CollinF replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 12:14 am

Well, if it isn't Alex the Agnostic himself. Where've ya been, man? You stop by, tell me you've decided to read the entire Bible, then drop off the face of the planet without even tellin' me your conversion story. I've heard Southern Hospitality doesn't extend too far West, but you at least owe me a Facebook friendship, right? :)

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CollinF replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 12:16 am

Oh, and have you read any Ayn Rand? I hear Libertarians are supposed to love her. :) I read "Anthem" yesterday, and it was pretty beast. The couple anti-religious remarks made me sigh, but all-in-all it was awesome.

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 12:57 am

Collin!
 
I remember I tried to respond to one of your posts a couple months ago, but I had written so much and the filter decided to be a *****.  Of course I forgot rule #1 about posting on TI and didnt copy my message before I postsed, so I lost it all -.-
 
Haha, I definitely will be getting your Facebook, Ive shot an email to Leafy, who can get me Destinees, and then of course yours :)
 
Haha, I remember how Destinee found yours (I posed with her remember :P)  but I couldnt find the location in question, so I just decided to email leafy.
 
Anyways, Im glad were gonna be in contact past our TI days, I got to know you guys pretty well (Destinee and you in particular), and im glad were keepin up.

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 2:55 am

Oh ya, Ayn Rand.
 
Havent read her stuff, but I agree with her viewpoints for the most part.

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 3:41 am

Btw, theres a video I'd like to get your opinion on Collin.
 
ht  tp://www.you tube.co m/watc h?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
 
If you could just watch this then tell me what you think, thatd be sweet.

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 10:19 am

Not to butt in Collin but yikes, I've always hated Ayn Rand. 
 
Her "objectivism" point of view doesn't sound like something a Christian like yourself would find appealing.  It sounds mostly like take care of yourself and what's yours and to each man his own kinda thing.  I read Anthem too and that's pretty much how I interpreted it.  

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:09 pm

Anima Cordis: 



Hi Anima! I agree about moral conditioning. That may, in fact, be true, and definitely is in many things (e.g. child marriages, marital r.ape, stuff like that). However, I was saying that our need for oughts (or morality) is indication of supernatural. I do agree fully that societal morality is good for society, obviously. Justice and all. And I am not saying that it was not developed through evolution or whatever. But I am saying that the fact that we NEED it (rather than having instincts), that fac tthat we are complex, IMPLIES that there is a purpose to it. 



Kant operated under the assumption that we were developed very well. So he thought that the reason for rationality was to control our will, because otherwise instinct would do a better job. Similarly, I say that the reason for morality is for us to be moral. I could definitely be wrong though. Morality is a grey area for me.



My argument was more along the lines of a will. I'm going to explain it in subsequent comments, so stick around :)

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:11 pm

Collin: 
I haven't read Anthems, but I agree with Breece: Isn't Objectivisim a bit...anti-Christianity? Isn't much of it based on humans as the creators of morality and their futures, rather than God?
And I read The Fountainhead. It sucked. I hated it. HATE HATE HATE. 

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:13 pm

Alex:

I didn't watch your video. A song called F*** me? SERIOUSLY?

And hmm..that's a great summary of it, yes. "Evidence" may be pushing it though. But to add to that, I would say that none of our visible/observable/measurable constituent parts have will..but like I said in a comment to Breece, I'm still thinking that one out.

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:15 pm

STUPID FILTER: 



Alex: 

 
I didn't watch the video. A song called F Me? SERIOUSLY??!
 
And hmm...that's a pretty good summary. Yes, that's what I was saying. "Evidence" may be pushing it though (even if I did use that word, my bad). And to add to it, I would say that none of our visible/measurable/observable constituent parts demonstrate free will. But like I said to Breece, I'm still thinking about that one. 

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Whiplash24 replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:22 pm

Destinee: Hate is a strong word. Was it really that bad?

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:26 pm

Breece: 
 
Hey dude, no worries :) Sorry for MY late reply, haha. 
 
Okay, so first of all: What I meant by the illusion/reality thing was this: 
 
There is a cat. Let us assume that cats do not have a MEANING in their life (i.e. divinely ordained). Can cats ever say: "The meaning of our life is an illusion"? By that I mean, since we CAN conceive of meaning, to say we don't have meaning is pretty...imo, dumb. Cats do not have a meaning of life, so they cannot CONCEIVE of meaning or having one, nor do they need to be able to give themselves a purpose. Does that make sense? 
 
I agree, there aren't a lot of black and white facts here. Like I said to Alex, "Evidence" is pushing it.  But there are implications, no? It implies to me something beyond materialism (though maybe not beyond agnosticism). 
 
As for evidence for a higher power, I actually said "supernatural". And by that I mean, beyond natural (and more specifically: beyond nature). To figure out the properties of whatever is supernatural, if it even has a will, is not part of my argument.
 
I see what you're saying about knowledge. WITHIN OUR FRAME OF REFERENCE, the highest likelihood is such-and-such. Let's ignore certainty and speak of "doubt", and more importantly, "beyond a reasonable doubt". If something is beyond a reasonable doubt, it may be wrong, yes. But an intelligent person bets on something that has a 90% chance of winning rather than a 10% chance. Ya see what I'm saying?
 
Again, I didn't say the entity would be omnipotent or all knowing or whatever. In fact the word "entity" may be deceptive too. 
 
But i hear where you're coming from. I was just where you are maybe...2 months ago? Questioning everything, not able to trust my own senses, not sure where I stand regarding evidence and truth, not sure what to trust and how we know what's certain. It's a tough road you're on, but you have to grow into it. I recommend reading "Groundwork for the Metaphysics" by Kant (or the name is something like that). 
 
I think it's possible to question everything. But if we speak of what's reasonable, or rational, or probable, life makes a whole lot more sense. For instance, my eyes could be deceiving me regarding colours or shapes or whatever. How am I to know? After all, I can see stars that are long gone. Why not the same with everything material?
 
But once you start doubting everything, the crystal clear thing becomes: You can't doubt your own mind. You can doubt its conclusions, yes, but not the fact that it exists. Maybe you can't define what a mind is, or maybe it's hard to figure out what 'it exists' means, but that's where armchair philosophy has to take a backseat and let experience steal the show. Ya getting me?
 
As for your thread, I'll reply tomorrow. Am very tired right now. Cheers!

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:28 pm

Haha, its actually "F**k Everything", a rather humorous piece by none other then John Lajoie.  Its funny :P
 
Cool deal, I think I get what you're saying.  Anyways, I got homework, so Im a little busy at the moment, but Ill be back!

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:29 pm

That is, the earlier video was John Lajoies, the one I asked Collin to watch is a bit more philosophical haha.

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:30 pm

Whiplash (you wouldn't happen to be Arch, would ya?):
 
Yes. Hate. Hate hate hate. I found it difficult to exactly ignore my disgust and revulsion at the concept of r.ape being right for the main girl cuz she needed to be dominated or something. What the heck? Seriously, WHAT THE HECK.

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Destinee replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 1:32 pm

I watched the one addressed to Collin. HAHAHAH :D 
 
I don't know who John Lajoe is *blush* And see you! Cheers

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 26, 2012 at 7:31 pm

Destinee:
 
I'll reply to your large post in the morning probably, but I just wanted to say I know exactly what you mean about the Ayn Rand thing.
 
I do not get how Collin could like Ayn Rand, it seems like everything she's saying is "watch out for yourself and be your own God" and stuff.  I don't like it at all, I think Collin might just have misinterpreted some of it, or maybe not read the afterward explaining it.

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CollinF replied...
Aug. 27, 2012 at 8:34 pm

To Alex:
 
Hahaha. Alex, Alex, Alex. Have you been gone that long? Always copy your post, paste it onto Microsoft Word, save it on Word in case the admins hack your computer to exit out of that, then post. I learned that procedure after losing an hour-long post about the meaning of life, after which I felt like punching a hole in my computer-screen. (In fact, this post was blocked, which I find kinda ironic.)
 
And haha, I remember. You kids, always so safety-oriented. It’s flakecollin at y.ahoo d.ot c. om in case ya don’t wanna go throught he rigamooro (sp?) to get it. That’s right, I posted it again, which makes me a bad-A. :p
 
And dude, me too! This way if you’re ever like cruising through the Bible Belt you can stop bye and say hey. I’ll take ya to church or something.
 
And I like the anti-Communist aspect of her views. Her philosophy’s a bit crummy.

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TheKingThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Aug. 27, 2012 at 8:43 pm

Guess so lol.  I just got Dess on FB, but its kinda hard to get you my friend when you dont answer requests ; )
 
haha, gotta say, you look exactly how I imagined you.  White as the driven snow, blond hair lol

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CollinF replied...
Aug. 27, 2012 at 8:48 pm

to Astonished Bystanders:
 
I like the points Rand makes in Anthem. You know, about how even though we can try to manipulate people with oppressive governments, it will never last cause human nature just won't take it. Her emphasis on the fact that everybody has a personal aspect whether we like it or not, and that it should be encouraged not stifled, is something I agree with. People shouldn't be forced into conformity. 
 
She was born Russian, so she's got a feel for Communism that a lot of anti-Communist writers don't have: it makes her work on the subject pretty poetic. And if there's anything I hate more than liberal politicians and Satan (in that order, which was in descending intensity), then it's Communism.
 
Granted, I don't agree with everything she says and wouldn't label myself an avid fan: I have a bad habit of seeing the best in writers, which makes my Christian friends go, "You read that?" People can grasp bits of the truth without getting the whole thing. The ancient church had a fetich for pagan Greek philosophers, and I occasionally like to read some heathen literature. :p
 
This may be the first time I've defended unorthodox behavior on here. I feel like such a rebel . . . 

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