Going off Will's (We-R-3) points he is correct in saying that the gun you have in your hands at the time of the breakin is the one you have to defend yourself. You don't have time to run and grab another gun. Unless you carry that gun around your house every waking minute which suggests two things:1) Increase in paranoia 2) Or that someone is legitimately out for your blood and you must keep yourself armed. The cops will definitely understand that(sarcasm).
Sorla: The reason to put more regulations in place is so it is harder for the average citizen to obtain said weapon and make the punishment more severe for the criminal and gun dealer. Duh. As for those who haven't registered their gun, I could care less, but come time they use it and the police are called, they will get a ticket wether it was self-defense or not. Police will ask for your license and registration for your gun. (This phrase is not just used when you are pulled over for speeding). You needed a gun when you were nine? You parents neglected you that much? Did your family pi.ss someone off so bad that they needed to arm their 9 year old. Really. REALLY? The government has every right to tell us we are not responsible enough. They can't just pick and choose as you said, they have to burn us all because of one's mistake. Auroa(sp) Theatre shootings, Newtown Elementary, Virginia Tech, ect. The government doesn't do their job huh? That is probably the most ignorant statement in the freaking world. I won't even explain how much the government does for us. The government is not just Congress.
capsgirl: All I had to do was type in 1929 Soviet Union Gun Control into Google, and first website just gave me every bit of information you gave me. For those interested to narrow the search down, Snopes. com
20 million dissidents, or those who were challenging Soviet Union taking away their guns. Well the Soviet Union at the time didn't have a Bill of Rights guaranteeing right to bear arms. In fact it was a communist government with a single party in power. So while it was 20 million, technically they opposed the law and they were killed because of it, harsh, but behind the blood and sadness you can see where Stalin and his party had grounds to do so.
The genocide against Armenians began with the April 24, 1915 announcement that Armenians would be deported to the interior. The announcement came while the Ottoman government was desperately afraid of an Allied attack that would turn Turkey's war against Russia into a two-front war. In fact, British troops landed at Gallipoli in western Turkey the next day. Although the Anglo-Russian offensives failed miserably, the Armenian genocide continued for the next two years. Some of the genocide was accomplished by shooting or cutting down Armenian men. The bulk of the 1 to 1.5 million Armenian deaths, however, occurred during the forced marches to the interior. Although the marches were ostensibly for the purpose of protecting the Armenians through relocation, the actual purpose was to make the marches so difficult (for example, by not providing any food) that survival was impossible. So in reality Americans were rounded up just like the Japanese were in WWII because the Ottoman Empire/Turkey feared a massive uprise from the Americans. Just as we feared the same from the Japanese. We just didn't put them on forced marches and shoot them.
The 13 million, Je.ws and others alike, mainly Je.ws, were rounded up because of this thought process coming from Hitler: He was on a path to rebuilding Germany and he believd that since the Great Depression had hit Europe as well, that it was mainly the fault of the business owners and shop owners, which were predominately Jewish. ombined with religious beliefs he started killing them off. It was Hitler, crazy off his butt. NONE of these incidents can be compared to modern day U.S. government. We have the right to own a gun, these people had no such law. We learned from their mistakes, the Government has not now nor ever said they will take away our guns. Extended background checks, smaller mags, and a tighter hold on the giving out of certain military grade rifles, but not banning them.
by the way capsgirl, if you are truly taking your information from said sight, I have counter arguements already waiting. If you aren't then you probably got the same information this person got especially where from because the format is almost identical minus some words.
The 13 million should be another paragraph
Yeah I needed a gun when I was a child, not for protection, I had my older cousins and my butterfly knife for that. I needed a gun to hunt, how else would we eat? Guns are such a big part of life, I think it's ignorant to treat them like explosives when they have much more important uses than fighting wars. My parents didn't neglect me that much, I think I had it pretty easy considering, but I still needed to hunt a few times a week, and I still do. I think if you were in my situation, you would understand. Everything is different for Pavees, I'm "lucky" that I have a social security number, my younger sister doesn't have one. We don't trust anyone to protect us, including the government. I don't think we should be required to trust the government either. Owning a cache of weapons for your own personal use is a lot different then owning a cache of weapons for murdering people. Therefore, if I'm not murdering people, I really don't think it matters if I follow every law word for word. I'm not hurting anybody, so the government should stay out of my business and go hunt down terrorists or whatever the he.ll it is you guys are paying them to do. Just cause the majority are scared shi.tless doesn't mean the rest of us need to suffer for their cowardice. If you're afraid, do something about it. Learn to protect yourself, don't wait for someone else to change the world and make it a better place, cause that just won't happen. Isn't the world good enough as it is? It could be so much worse, guns are the least of our problems. Does anyone care that our planet is dying and we're responsible? Humans are an odd creature.
But they still were unable to protect themselves. That's what I was getting at. How they came upon the decision (or whatever the heck you were trying to rationalize and explain) to ki.ll those people doesn't matter. They were still not right in doing so. And of course there are dissidents in the S.U.! It is a horrible place to live, and they were probably just trying to find a way to stand up against their govt. Oh, sorry. I guess you wouldn't understand, being that you want the govt to step all over us (or, better put, people you disagree with). *and btw, i have no idea how you process this all mentally, but it is how it sounds and comes out, in my opinion. it's kinda like when you twist my words and such. i think that it's probably just unavoidable* Try to think of it this way. The govt tries to tell you whether or not you can have an abor.tion. I mean, that's not fair, right? They shouldn't be allowed to do that. You can do what you want with your bo.dy. It's the same with guns. MOST gunowners feel like the govt shouldn't be involved (meaning taking away or bannng the guns) bc (1) they paid for it and (2) it's their right.
Also, having a 10 round vs. a 30 is not a big difference. My great uncle served in the Vietnam War. They had to tape the rounds (3 10 rounds, staggered). This gave them the ability to quickly reload, simply by pulling out the magazine and flipping it. It didn't take long at all. I was just saying this because people tend to think that because the number is lower, it is better. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter that much, why not placate the people crying for this. At the moment, this is the main thing in the way of removing a physical element as far as gun ownership is concerned.
The social stigma as far as registering their guns is ridiculous. Yes it is a hassle...so is paying your taxes (no matter how low or high they are) or having to go to the DMV to get your license. A car is just as capable of killing something or someone as a gun if not more so, why not get your guns registered.
I agree with We-R-3, there's a good reason cars are registered. The same can easily be applied to guns. If it's used in a crime, or even if it's stolen, having it registered helps with the case.
capsgirl: Cheers for the facts! You know you brought up Hitler, right? Inadvertantly, but with the German gun control. Have you heard of Godwin's law?
""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
It then goes on to say, " once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress."
I'm making a joke and obviously am not going to enforce it, but it is food for thought.
In direct respnse to that incident of history though, gun control laws in Germany have been considerably changed since then, so that they actually make sense.
Sorla: I think the point you're missing here is that not everyone is as controlled as you are with how they use their guns. I know not everyone is a raving, manical killer either, so it must look very unfair to you to have sensible gun owners punished for something that the majority of gun owners don't do. Have you heard of the slogan, sacrifice a few to save many? In this case, what gun owners might be sacrificing is some (but not all) of their guns. And in return many, many lives will be saved. Doesn't that seem worth it? A little more control over guns to save human lives. People will still be able to own guns, but it will ensure that they are far more likely to be responsible with them.
If there are any typos in my post, I apologise. My sight has gone all weird today. I'm finding it hard to see properly.
"Therefore, if I'm not murdering people, I really don't think it matters if I follow every law word for word."
Sorla: Ok so if you won't follow the law word for word then why are you complaining about the government putting laws into place, that you won't follow at all. There is no point. Well Sorla, if you are a Pavee(I know who Pavees are) then all for it, I don't know if you get a social security number or not. However, the fact you are using wifi right now, and that you have an email, can tell me all I need to know about you, wether you have a social security number or not. As long as you live in the U.S. the government will always know you exist. They don't have to know your name or adress.
The majority of us may be scared sh.itless, but there are quite a few of us who can't learn to protect ourselves. We have to have others to help us. Consider my blind step brother, you really expect him to fend off home invaders with a gun when he can't even see. Yea sure. This will not turn into those movies where the sensei can hear the movements of the other person and counter all of them.
If the world was good enough as it is, we wouldn't have wars and we'd all be fat and lazy and bored. Humans always want bigger and better stuff. Our planet is dying, it has been since it was created/formed. Just like Humans, the minute we are born, we start to die. Our panet has already been dying. if you are hinting Global Warming, Im laughing. Yes we are speeding up the end of our world, but the world won't die in our lifetime. Then again it may.
Going back to treating guns like explosives. No they aren't. You can take anti-freeze and chlorine tablets and make an explosion. government can't regulate explosives except for the obvious pre made ones. Guns on the other hand, they can regulate and ration them out because you can't pull parts from home out of the blue and make a perfect Rifle. Difference between rifle and explosives, rifle must be perfect in order to work, only certain things can be used. Explosives are the exact opposite. I hate when people compare explosives to Guns, you can't. No matter which side of the debate you are on.
What gun do you typically hunt with? AR-15? Pistol? or an actually Hunting Rifle? Just curious.
You don't have to trust the government, but you will respect them. I'm not telling you to respect them. If a police officer asks you to move, you better move. If he pops open a search warrant, comply or you will be arrested. Simple as that. Trust is one thing, respect is another.
I pay the government to give me clean water, take care of my waste, give me gas and electricity. Protect my house if it catches on fire, and save it. I pay them so I can have Medical Insurance when I am sick or injured. I could go on forever.
Are you a United States Citizen, regardless of what you think of the government? Or are you here with a VISA?
capsgirl: Yes they were unable to protect themselves because of the mass forces against them(government) Of course they weren't right in doing so, but you can't compare those leaders to ours. The only thing we share is the fact that we are trying to impose a type of gun control. Those countries just flat took away the guns, we AREN'T.
There you go again, with I guess you wouldn't understand, being that you want the government to step all over us. I know exactly how it means to be stepped on by the government. My family has been stepped on, squashed, drilled into the dirt, pis.sed on, and covered up with more dirt, but to havew a flower placed on top of us to make us "feel" better. If you would make another thread, I will be happy to explain my family's predicaments.
The government tries to tell you not to have an abo.rtion, yea I know, just like with same-se.x marriage. There are things in life that they could be arguing over rather than this right now. Gun control fits into the same category. Come to an agreement or start working on something that needs working on. PATRIOT ACT needs a lot done on it. O and the government isn't taking away anyone's guns(Ive said this a billion times). Look it up, they are wishing to limit the size of magazines, extended background checks, and make it a longer and harder but not impossible task of obtaining military grade semi, and automatic weapons. At no point did they say we want to take your guns. NEVER. Obama for crying out loud skeet shoots on the weekends when he can. Yea, like he is going to outlaw guns. BS.
Sorla and capsgirl: I mean no disrespect for you two when I say this, however, say several theives came into your home and overpowered your family but didn't kill them. And they took everything from your home that could be used to kill someone else. Destroy anything that isn't useful to them. and then they leave(They take your bow and knives too Sorla). Then what? what do you expect to happen. Police to show up and help you? "Hi some robbers who I don't know came in and stole all our weapons and personal belongings." Answers can be numerous but this one comes to mind."We will help in every way possible, do you have your gun registration so if we find it we can see it is yours. O you don't have registration. Hmmmmmm." Also knowing you Sorla after what you have told me over the months on TI, you would go after them using your tracking abilities, per say if they left tracks, and get your guns back. Mhmmmmmm. Police don't like it when you interfere. Something like Obstruction of Justice.
i'm just wondering what you expect to happen if you are overpowered. What do you expect the government do for someone who stockpiles weapons, refuses to trust the government or abide by the laws. Watch the case take months.
I'm complaining because those in positions of authority automatically assume their lives are worth more then the ordinary citizen. They still give us grief for just living, no matter what the laws are. Because a lot of the things we do are considered illegal or immoral, (even though making a living shouldn't be), cops treat us all like criminals.
As for those who can't defend themselves, why do you think humans are pack animals? We protect our own. Your step brother depends on you and your family to keep him safe, just like my little sister and her friend depend on me. If every human being would pick up a weapon and refuse to be victimized, we wouldn't even need cops. I know it works, because in our communities, we look out for each other. It's human instinct, even when a stranger is in trouble, don't you feel that pull to help them? It's a biological urge that everyone has, and most people ignore.
I'm going beyond global warming. People are starving and running out of resources, we can't maintain our population if we don't do something about how much we consume. Our future as a whole is much more important then gun control, and will make a much larger impact on the amount of people who die.
I mostly use traps and hunt with long bows and recurve bows now, because of the attention I attract firing guns in the city limits, but if I'm in New Hampshire or out in the Berkshires, I use a Winchester model 1892 carbine, .45 caliber, or my Colt model 04691. I prefer 45's, 40's, and 357's in general.
I was born in America, same as my mom. My father was born somewhere overseas, but we don't really know where. My grandparents were tinkers as well, and they were in Ireland or the U.K. at the time of his birth I think. We mostly stuck to the east coast for my childhood but we've been settled in the Boston area for a few years now ever since he split.
If someone wanted to overpower my family, they would have to kill them. I've seen my cousin bite someone's ear off once. We've had a home invasion a few times, and it never ends well for those involved. The first time I was very young and all I remember is my cousin and my father mauling this poor guy who didn't know what he was getting himself into. The second time I was ten and something woke me up at night, so I went downstairs to find this man rifling through our kitchen. I woke everyone else and my dad tried to make me put a bullet through his head to prove my worth. I feel worse for the intruders in these situations then myself. Some guy broke into our camper when I was fifteen and living on the road, and he scared the sh.it out of me. One second I was dozing and watching Smokey and the Bandit, and the next some guy is in the van. I got him with the .357 under the bed and he didn't stay long. Don't think I hurt him that bad, cause he ran pretty fast after the fact. What would make someone so desperate that they would mess with my crazy family? I think breaking in is the dumbest thing someone can do, cause you never know what you're getting yourself into.
Who needs cops for protection when you have a clan of psychopaths in your corner?
Arm every American citizen, no need for cops. WRONG. Completely wrong. In YOUR communities. In the rest of the world, most people if they had a gun would forget justice and just end it on the spot. Which is a little much. Gangs would have an all out open war. It would be mass chaos.
Hehe, we are not running out of resources, we just don't tend to look in the most obvious of places. As for starving, we can fix that, and we are actually doing so. Heard of Heifer International? To name one.
By the fact that you were born on American solil makes you an American citizen, which gives you the rights and privlages of said citizenship. Since, you are an American citizen wether you support the government or not, you abide by the laws or pay the price. Simple as that. I know many people just like you who have an ultra sensitive pain with the government, probably even more so than you. However, they follow the laws no matter how mad they get because they know that if they break it, they miss out on a lot of great oppurtunities in life. They groan all the time, but they also have some thick skin, so when the goverment does walk all over them, they don't bite back. They patiently wait for the next American Revolution to let go of their anger. From the sound of your posts Sorla, you do not have some thick skin.
Your Dad made you try and put a bullet through someone else's head for breaking and entering. You know there is a federal law against unjust harm. Wether they attacked you or not. And I'm trying really hard not to call BS on that. That is just a little out there to believe in.
No offense, but why do people always target you guys and not me. I want some of the action too!
Fine, what if they put some heavy sleeping pills in your water? Then what. You going to tell me your family is stronger than some sleeping pills?
As for your last question, when the guys in the other corner can put 8 of their guys on 1 of your family, all with better and more sophisticated guns than your family. I prefer to use the saying, there is always a bigger fish, or fishes. lol
What can I say? Fiery and overwhelming tempers run in the family lol. I don't interact with the government past the occasional cop. So far they haven't given me a reason to go all whack job, so it's all good. Yeah, I'm crazy. No I don't think there's anything wrong with that. At least my crazy is all in one place and I don't bottle it up. I may not have the patience or the tolerance of your die hard revolutionary friends, but I do know one thing. The only person who will be able to kill me is myself, accidentally or inadvertently. Hmm, I think your opinion would change if you met my father. He's possibly the nuttiest and most violent man I've ever met. He never thinks, just acts, and causes way more trouble then he's worth, all while maintaing a steady blood alcohol level of .15 all the time. He's done crazier things then try and make his ten year old kill someone. He spent an afternoon exorcising my demons a few times, and he killed my sister's cat once for talking back to him. That's why people have a problem with my family. It's all him, he can't enter a room without making at least three enemies. And when it's not him, it's my older sister, and when it's not her it's me. I guess we're just too erratic or something. What ever.
As for the sleeping pills, that seems a little far fetched, doesn't it? What are sleeping pills? Benzodiazepines? That would certainly knock me on my as.s, but I think my mother and older sister have built such a tolerance that they would just sit there like drunken college girls with free drugs, lol. The chances of some guy drugging my family and stealing what we own (Basically nothing they could make a profit off of other then my Smith and Wesson revolver) are far less then if I were to grow wings and start flying, which could happen, we never know.
I don't believe I'm doing anything terrible enough to warrant cops coming after us. We don't kill anybody, we're not part of any gangs or anything. The only thing we're really guilty of is not giving a sh.it. It can't be illegal to be a free spirit, and if it is, I might as well just count my losses. I have nothing against America. I love America! I love all the awesome greasy food and movies and the mountains and forests and grasslands, I love all the die hard people who don't take sh.it from anybody and will die for their sense of freedom. I love what America stands for. I don't particularly like when some government rolls in and decides they know best, and they're in charge.
Jubilex: Dang. Twenty seconds after I posted a comment involving the N.azis in the Philosophy forum I read your reply. :D
Saw a fb post I abosolutely agree with. Let me retype it for everyone to see.
"Guns don't kill people, People kill people."
Well no sh.it
We want mandatory safety courses for people, not guns.
We want more thorough background checks of people, not guns.
We want stricter negligence penalties imposed on people, not guns.
If you're stu.pid enough to believe activists are pissed at guns, you're too stu.pid to own one.
Dang. Anything I could say is going to look weak in after that, but I'll still say it:
I'm so, so tired of people saying "Well, guns are only dangerous/deadly if they're misused!" No. Guns are only deadly if used for their intended purpose. For a country founded on the rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, we sure do love arming mentally ill people with tools designed for efficient murder.
We were also given the right to bear arms. (2nd Ammendment of the Bill of Rights). We don't intentionally arm mentally ill people. In fact, it is the government's job to take care of that (and they need to do better...ex. VT shooting could have been prevented if the govt did their job). I think there needs to be background checks and such, but banning guns? No, I don't think that's necessary.
There always needs to be a fine red line drawn across what kind of weapons civilans should have vs. the military or law enforcement. In order for said military and law enforcement to do their job, capsgirl, then they need to have bigger and better toys than us. If that means a strict hold on dispersing semi-autos, fine.
Like AR-15s, I'm presuming??? Take away cosmetics and suddenly the gun doesn't look so bad and scary anymore. The whole point of the second amendment was to protect ourselves from the govt, which we may have to do eventually. So, why should they have better guns and weapons? Don't you want to protect yourself and your family? Not just from the govt, but from bad people too?
1) The 2nd Amendament was not made to protect ourselves from the government. the original reason was when during the time of our founding fathers and the American revolution, most world powers were monarchies. We made that right so that we coulkd arm ourselves as militias when the government should need us. because we didn't have a regular army at the time of the Constitution. Yea, the government gave us a right to bear arms against them. Sureee.
2) Take away the cosmetics? It is still an AR-15, semi-automatic rifle. No changing that. Looks don't mean anything.
3) Why should the governemnt have better toys? Realise that the government includes our military, the law enforcement, and government agencies protecting us against criminals and terrorists and enemy combatants. If the enemy has an AK, we better have a .50 cal to bring them down. Always have the better gun. I don't care the politics of the governemnt, I want the governemnt to have better weapons knowing that I am safer because they have the power to do what I cannot. I am not a vigilante, not my job. The government reserves the right to be total a.s.s.h.o.l.e.s. However when it comes to crime and protection, they are superb at doing so.
4) Protecting my family and myself. Duh. Do I need a semi to do it? No. Does anyone? No. They came up with this wonderful new invention, called the shotgun. when home invaders enter my home, guaranteed this shotgun will do more damage with a wider spread, than a semi.
5) Best one. The governemnt will always have better toys than us. By means of tanks and attack helicopters and drones. If they really wanted to hurt my family, a freaking semi can't do s.h.i.t.