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Gun Control vs. Gun Rights

Imaginedangerous replied...
Mar. 30, 2013 at 12:26 am

I think you missed Breece's point... Yeah, a gun is not the same thing as a bomb. A gun is also not the same thing as a fist, thus invalidating your whole 'cut off limbs!' hyperbole.
Maybe you never asked for or wanted safety, but I think the rest of society would disagree. Why do you think people set up governments in the first place? The whole point of the government is to protect people. That's what it's trying to do through gun control. Should we also abolish the fire department? I never asked for them to trespass on my property! They're violating my right to privacy! Shoudl we also abolish traffic laws? I never asked them to keep people from driving dangerously! They're violating my right to drive drunk!
Government is not some alien institution that was imposed upon us by an evil conspiracy. It was developed by the people to organize and protect themselves.
Also, I don't think you're entirely clear on what a 'right' is. A 'right' is not the ability to do whatever you want- it is something you deserve by virtue of being human. Also, a right is only feasible when it does not infringe on the rights of everyone around you.
Finally, I'd be really interested to know how you arrived at the conclusion that free markets cause school shootings.

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capsgirl74 replied...
Mar. 30, 2013 at 8:56 am

I understand that there needs to be restrictions on guns, such as who can buy said gun. We do not need to ban certain guns. No offense, I hate the whole "get a handgun if you want to protect yourself" argument because the only reason they are not being banned is because of how they look. Most handguns, like some rifles and shotguns, are also automatic and semi-automatic. A lot of people think they aren't because of the size. Have any of you every held an AR-15? Have you ever taken the time to understand the way it works? NO!!! Because you see and hear what you want, and you don't take the time to realize what everyone is talking about. The problem with our society is that we think one thing and we can't seem to critially analyze the situation because we are so inclined to believe one way, we can't open our freakin eyes. Our rights to bear arms was given to us by the government to protect us from the government and any opposers. Now, they ARE trying to take that right away and they are using the deaths of 20 children and 6 teachers to fuel their argument. If they were that concerned, they should have tried harder before. I think that it is sick to use a tragedy for a reason, especially when people are weak and want to blame something. It's too easy to blame Adam Lanza, so let's blame guns. That's rational...not really. 

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capsgirl74 replied...
Mar. 30, 2013 at 9:00 am

And by the way, handguns kill about 96% of gun-related deaths. Every other type of gun is shoved into the other 4%. I don't want this to happen, but why are they focusing on the minor problems when, through statistics, handguns are actually more of the problem (and easier for criminals to get their dirty hands on)?

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Mar. 30, 2013 at 5:19 pm

The reason they're focusing on assault rifles is because they think there's actually a chance. The NRA would never in a million years let any handgun restriction get through Congress- and neither would the Republican party. They aren't going to waste their time on the impossible.

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Mar. 30, 2013 at 7:08 pm

Governments are set up by the strongest and most sadistic to dominate others without repercussion, but that is beyond the point. The government may tell us that they are needed for our own protection, but that is only to gain our respect and dependence. Cops and authority have put me in more danger then anyone else ever has, and they are legally allowed to do so, leading me to believe the entire system can't be trusted. What is their ulterior motive for restricting automatic and semi automatic weapons? It sure as he.ll isn't to protect us, they don't care about us. In fact, they depend on us to be scared and disorganized for their power. Where will it stop? Will they try and take away our knives, or machetes or hatchets? Will they enforce a curfew or set a limit on how much alcohol we can buy? The government wasn't developed by the people, it was developed by the people already in charge to enforce their authority. And yes, everyone has the right to do whatever they please. Sometimes people do terrible things, but by doing so, they leave themselves open for repercussion. I remember when an older boy beat me up, and my neighbor nearly beat him to death. Cause and effect. A man robs a bank, he gets gunned down. Someone attacks another person's family, that person will kill them. Why doesn't society trust people as a whole to do the right thing? We're perfectly capable of it, we don't need any politicians in suits making decisions for us, like what weapons we're allowed to own. People do have the right to harm others, but they have to understand the consequences. A right is knowing that you could do the wrong thing, but still choose to do what's right. As for the school shootings, without society and government, we wouldn't have public schools where you ship off your children daily and hope nothing happens to them when they are out of your sight, where you can't protect them. Society is superficial, it is the reason why so many people suffer from depression and anxiety, and some of them end up being serial killers. Humans are the only primates that kill other members of their own species for no reason. Apes may kill other apes, but they do it for their own survival or to protect their families. I'm just speaking for myself here, but I am small and female, and really disadvantaged if someone wants to harm me. I need weapons to defend myself, and knives barely cut it (no pun intended, ok maybe a little.) 

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capsgirl74 replied...
Mar. 31, 2013 at 1:36 pm

I think that the government needs to mind their own business. They constantly meddle in the lives of Americans and if we continue to let them step all over us, we will eventually be right-less. I agree with Sorla. People can handle their own problems. We are not incompetent little children. We can stand up for ourselves, should we need to. And it is the governments own fault that there is still so much crime. Maybe if they figured out how to punish people properly, then criminals would actually see things such as the death penalty as an actual threat.

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Gryffindor replied...
Mar. 31, 2013 at 11:03 pm

"Have any of you every held an AR-15? Have you ever taken the time to understand the way it works? NO!!! Because you see and hear what you want, and you don't take the time to realize what everyone is talking about. "
Capsgirl, with all due respect no I haven't. Instead I've held and fired the MR556A1. The civilian semi-automatic rifle that is the exact replica of the M416 military grade rifle. Technically an M416 is slightly more deadly than an AR-15. Higher fire rate, lower accuracy. Good for what many people call,"spraying and praying". As gruesome as that sounds. 
I live in the world of guns. 

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Gryffindor replied...
Mar. 31, 2013 at 11:13 pm

By the way besides single shot pistols, revolvers, and the Machine pistols which make up a small percentage of the handgun world, semi-automatic is pretty much how all guns are made. Semi-automatic meaning you have to pull the trigger each time to fire. Of course Burst fire goes in there somewhere.  
Also, I've been listening to the news, and I believe lawmakers are looking to limit, per say, the sell of automatic weapons(which includes any gun you can hold the trigger and empty your clip) and clips with more than 20 rounds. That's what I've read from CNN's website. 
O and as a side note, in order to repeal an amendament in the constitution by putting another in its place, would take an Act of Congress to do so, which with our current government, will never happen. 

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Gryffindor replied...
Mar. 31, 2013 at 11:20 pm

Capsgirl, alright, say the government minds their own business and they don't offer us any help? Correct. That's how I read your post. You don't want the government in your problems. Here are some things you will be missing:
Waste management(big one)
water and electricity will be drastically low
public safety(fire deaprtments, public hospitals, road services, police stations)
Public schools
Public colleges/universities
Prisons(could go up there with public safety)
Basically the above listed is a small list of what the government does when stepping into our problems. If all that is provided and all I have to do is agree to some limits, you got my vote 500%. Trust me, the first thing i'd notice is the backed up toliets after Taco/Burrito Football night. 15 football guys in one house. Then the trash. Then my 0 Hot water or for that matter any.

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Gryffindor replied...
Mar. 31, 2013 at 11:26 pm

Sorla, I'll get to you in 18 ish hours. I'm beat. But don't worry I have several counter arguements. I'm taking up for Breece while his spriong break is on. lol

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Breece6 replied...
Apr. 8, 2013 at 2:28 pm

back from Spring Break :D
Alright, let's get down to business:
I'm gonna separate this into 2 arguments:
Guns, and Government
I'm assuming from your description that an AR-15 is little more than a glorified hunting rifle.  
If that's not the case, it shouldn't be allowed because it is capable of lots of killing in a very fast period of time.  
Non-automatic rifles and pistols without enormous magazines are okay as long as they require registration and limitation.
I don't wanna take away your huntin' rifles or your handguns, I just don't wanna let average everyday joe have an automatic weapon. 
Sorla and Capsgirl:
As has already been mentioned, the government is responsible for many of our necessary facilities.  
I honestly don't know what Capsgirl's response to that will be, so I'm gonna reply to Sorla instead since I do.
Sorla, you believe humanity should go back to its primal roots and animalistic tendencies, including anarchy, as far as I'm aware.  
I'm going to approach this from a logistical standpoint, if there's an anarchy, there will be no agreement on who is in charge of nuclear weapons.
A country with an organized government will then use their nuclear weapons to overpower us, simple as that.
What I think your response to that will be is somewhere along the lines of "Humans shouldn't be so creepily smart as to make nuclear weapons", that may be true, but we are.
I'm talking about in all practicality.  
The world we live in is too far gone, we can't de-evolve, we can't get dumber, we can't just forget about nuclear weapons and pretend they don't exist.  
Organization rules in the world we live in today, it's the nature of the world humans have created.  
If we want to survive, we need to be organized.  We need government, or else every other country with a government will take advantage of us.

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Gryffindor replied...
Apr. 8, 2013 at 6:09 pm

It would be quite a site to see the government taken away. With no government, we have no military, sure there are militias, but I mean really, Congrats you'll have guns. But you won't get enough money to buy tanks, planes, aircraft carriers, much less nuclear war jheads. And if you do make a group to get that kind of stuff, you become a government. At that stage, North Korea could easily wipe us out. They are 5th in the world with largest army. and 1rst in the world in the largest reserves. 

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Apr. 10, 2013 at 1:51 pm

I don't know about everyone else, but I have absolutely no use for the government. They are just too meddlesome to be worth it. Governments always think that they can change people, make them better. But that's impossible. We need to stop denying what we are. If everyone is focused on their own survival, they won't find any use for attacking people pointlessly. In all practicality, organization may work for the sheep, but what about everyone else who has their own mind? Do we need to suffer, be outcasts from society, just cause some guy in a suit says so? Do we need to give up our weapons (key survival tools) just cause they're afraid of us rebelling? I'm not gonna lay down just cause the American government tells me to. They can have my guns when they pry them out of my cold dead hands.

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Breece6 replied...
Apr. 10, 2013 at 2:55 pm

Do you live in a house with running water and electricity?  I'm guessing yes since you're using a computer.
If you're using a public library computer that's even better *evil grin*
Would you rather be run by this government, or one of the ones that would take us over like China if this one didn't exist?  
I assume you either drive or wak around on streets, would you rather there be no traffic laws, that way people could drive on the sidewalks? 
People don't want to survive, they want to live.  They want to do more than focus on their survival, they want to have religion, to have a group that accepts them, to have fun.  These things will conflict.  It's inevitible.  
Handguns and hunting rifles are survival tools, automatic weapons are killing tools. 

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Apr. 10, 2013 at 3:41 pm

I disagree. Life would be just as easy without running water or electricity. I've lived in the wilderness for months at a time in the past, just because I like it more then the city. Electricity is unnecessary, and who needs running water when it rains all the time, and there is water on the ground in lakes and rivers? This government, when compared to communist regimes like China seems perfect, but it doesn't mean we need them to control us. Traffic laws don't matter anyways, laws are just words, if someone really wanted to drive on the sidewalks, who can stop them? The police? Because by the time the police get there, lots of people will probably be injured or dead. It's a flawed system. They're all flawed systems. What's the point if we can take care of ourselves just fine? I don't know where you're getting this religion and belonging thing, but we all belong, all the time. We're all human beings, and we must figure out a way to work together to keep our children and our species alive. Who is the government to say automatic weapons aren't for hunting? If someone uses an AR-15 for hunting, then that counts as a hunting rifle too. If we can't recess and forget about all of our modern technology, doesn't that include guns? Why should the government be allowed to restrict what technology we have. Is it cause they don't trust us to be responsible? We never asked for their interference.

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CollinF replied...
Apr. 10, 2013 at 5:08 pm

Just viewed an extensive list of school massacres on Wikipedia. Lots of knife-related ones, also lots of home-made bombs, a few hand-gun ones, and 0 assault-rifle deaths. 

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CollinF replied...
Apr. 10, 2013 at 5:14 pm

Neither handguns nor hunting rifles are survival tools in the 21st century, Breece. We use them for recreation and (very seldom) for self-defense. (That is, handguns. Hunting rifles would be virtually useless in a home invasion.)
People use assault rifles for the same reason. 

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capsgirl74 replied...
Apr. 10, 2013 at 7:23 pm

Yay Collin!!! Someone besides Sorla and I get it! You rock!!

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Imaginedangerous replied...
Apr. 10, 2013 at 8:47 pm

Hmm... Well, I guess Collin's right. No school assault rifle deaths, so my argument must be invalid.
(Obviously, since the Aurora Century 16 isn't a school, it doesn't count.)
Sorry about the recreation thing, but sometimes recreation has to be limited for the public safety. (I seem to remember you being on the 'illegal' side of the 'recreational drugs' debate. Also banned are recreational drag racing, recreational gambling, and recreational ownership of dangerous animals. I'm sure the Bengal Tiger wannabe-owners will someday get over their depression.)
And as far as 'self-defense' goes, I'll repeat my earlier point- if you're such a lousy shot that you need to shoot twenty bullets in ten seconds to hit a guy inside your house, you shouldn't have a gun a in the first place. A handgun works fine for self-defense.

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Apr. 10, 2013 at 9:04 pm

A handgun does work fine, sure. But why should assault rifles be banned from the general public. If you don't like guns, that's understandable, don't buy any or let them in your house. But you can't force your opinions on everyone else. If I want an assault rifle, I'll get one, no matter what anyone says. The sooner people can just accept that they honestly can't do anything to make people better, the world will be more peaceful. All I know is that assault rifles are sometimes necessary for protection, if you get into trouble with the wrong people. I've seen some crazy sh.it in my time, like something out of a Tarantino movie. If bad people can have assault rifles, I think everyone should have the option of owning them. 

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