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human6 replied...
Oct. 5, 2012 at 11:57 pm

 
I posted that already? could of sworn that was anatonomy of fascism.
 
eccentially fascism views the world as a kind of end of days, when the oppressed and victimized nation will rise in power and glory to former greatness (New Roman Empire, Third Reich). But first those who have betrayed the nation or are its enemies must be destroyed. All hints of curruption caused by these enemies and traitors must be expunged, in violent ritual of militarism and slaughter, which the first generations shall give their lives to cause. In fascism action is glorified for its own sake, as it is an expression of power. The nation is its mind, a will, and the state is the hand by which that will expresses itself.

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human6 replied...
Oct. 6, 2012 at 12:07 am

 
simpler definition of fascism:
 
on the nation:
 
1. the nation is in decline, this is caused by external victimization 
 
 
 
2. their are traitors among the nation itself, allied with the external enemy
 
3. it is neccessary to expunge these traitors and the curruption they caused by a ritualistic slaughter.
 
4. along with the purging ritual their must be sacrifice so that a new age can emerge where the nation is reborn in all its former glory, and a new man is created who is the expression of the nation.
 
general:
 
action: Action is an end with in itself, to act is to show you have the will to express your power
 
will: Will is everything it is the force of history, using will is heroism
 
the nation: the state is the hand by which the will of the nation acts, to disagree with it is to disagree with the nation
 

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Caesar123This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 6, 2012 at 8:22 am

Alright, I think I can finally see where you’re coming from. But do you deny that fascists normally consolidate power into one source (i.e. a dictator) and extend the power and influence of the state in its citizens’ everyday lives? Do you deny that fascists are crazy with control, and that is why they’re willing to do anything (even lie to their own people) to hold on to that power?

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 6, 2012 at 9:47 am

Caesar:
 
Yup, I think we have marginally equal views now :)
 
Also, website links are censored by the filters on this forum so I had to put spaces in between different parts of the link.  What you have to do is start from the end of the URL and go back deleting the spaces, or you could just google the URL with the spaces and it'll probably turn up.
 
Not sure if you know that already, just a possible problem you might not know about.

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Caesar123This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 7, 2012 at 3:08 pm

Yeah, I got the URL thing. I posted my own, didn’t I? And if we can even kinda sorta find common ground, then I guess that’s progress right?

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 8, 2012 at 6:17 am

Caesar:
 
Ah, forgot about you posting that :P  
 
But yep, I think we're making progress, we agree on the definition (roughly) now.
 
I still think we're in disagreement towards whether America leans towards said definition though, I still think that the majority of Americans would easily give up their rights to fascism provided the right person came around.
 
That's the problem with fascism in America, there's so much diversity it's hard to please everyone.  Which means maybe that fascism is actually fairly unlikely, but at the same time still desired I suppose.
 
Ah well.

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JunieSparrowThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm

 
 
Okay.  I was skeptical, but then I looked up corporatism.  From the research I've done the last few days, the basic theories of facism seem to be more or less as human6 put them. 
 
However, the main "problem" and perhaps one of the fundamental tenets of facism is that it sets the individual below the "community" (read: government authorities).  In principle this sounds reasonable, but in practice this leads to all kinds of abuses by the state.  Minorities and anyone the least opposed to a policy of the "community" will be squashed by the benevolence of the "community." 
 
Here's another question.  I guess we pretty much agree that facism is totalitarian.  But what is totalitarianism?  Wikipedia says it's "a political system where the state holds total authority over society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life wherever necessary  [Italics mine]."  That's a bit vague for my taste.  I'll post my definition tomorrow (probably) but I'm interested to see what you all think. 

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 8, 2012 at 1:10 pm

I agree with both your definition of fascism and totalitarianism.
 
I do not advocate or support howeer, I find totalitarian and despotarian governments distasteful and impractical personally.

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Caesar123This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 8, 2012 at 7:59 pm

Well, Breece6, I believe that any government/society could be in danger of falling prey to fascism and/or totalitarianism if the right circumstances. For example, during the Great Depression, Germany and the United States were in much of the same position. Work was scarce, unemployment was high, people were starving in the streets, and worst of all people’s pride and sense of self worth had been shattered.
 
Germany and the U.S. were also much the same in the fact that they elected charismatic, strong willed, determined leaders. However where the two veer off is that Hitler totally believed that old system was no good and had to be remade in order to restore the Aryan race to its “place in the sun”.
 
FDR on the other hand believed in strengthening democracy, and making things work. He believed that it was better for a man to have a job instead of just a handout, because that job restored his feeling of self-worth.
 
In most scenarios Hitler thought that the system was rotten, whereas Roosevelt thought that things needed to change within the system.
 
But to get back to your point, I suppose there is a possibility people would trade in their rights for the stability of fascism, if such a drastic scenario ever arose. However I think that America is unique in the fact that our rights have been so solidly cemented and re-cemented over the ages that most people have no idea what it is like to live without the freedom of speech or religion. So for people to give up their rights so instantaneously, things would have to be pretty bad.

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human6 replied...
Oct. 9, 2012 at 5:18 pm

The other problem is the nature of the American Polity, it's so decentralized, and has so many levels, areas of internal conflict and juristictions it would be difficult for massive changes to occur. Say that the American Nazi Party was elected by a landslide, my town is mostly Jewish, especially in the police, you think that my towns government would agree to let a holocaust happen. The police would rise up against the government. Look at Obamas fight with conservative govenors, only picture those governors ordering the state police to rebel.

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JunieSparrowThis teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 9, 2012 at 6:27 pm

All right, my definition of a totalitarian system of government: 
 
One which claims either by word or by deed the right to control all aspects of the civilians' lives. 
 
Wikipedia says the State controls "necessary" aspects of the lives of the subjects.  I'm skeptical about the definition of necessary.  It's too easy to call "national defense" necessary, for example.  Also note that by my definition the State doesn't necessarily have to control every aspect of life, it just claims in some way the authority to do so. 
 
I hope you more or less agree with my definition.  Now let me ask a question.  Is The United States of America a totalitarian state?  If so, why?  If not, why not? 
 
 

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Caesar123This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 9, 2012 at 7:38 pm

Why would America be a totalitarian state? How would that idea even get out there? We the people elect nearly all of the key decision makers (minus Supreme Court justices for obvious reasons). In a government where the citizen’s get to decide who rules over them, how could a sensible person call that totalitarianism?
 
Now I know you quote your belief as being the fact that the government decides every aspect of my life for me. You’ve got to ask yourself, does that happen in America? Does the government get to decide how much food I can eat, where I go, who I spend my life with, how much money I make, what dreams and aspirations I can have? No, of course not! So in finality, calling America or its government totalitarian is absurd (political parties on the other hand are a different matter).

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 10, 2012 at 5:59 am

Caesar:
 
You make a good point, I think the desire for a fascist government might just be human nature.  We look to a singular source of power during difficult times.
 
As you've pointed out though, we're too used to our rights, and as I pointed out earlier, America has too much diversity for one figure to be appealing to all.  
 
Perhaps it's not likely, just a desirable notion for people who would rather not be involved in their government.
 
Ah well, on the note of whether America is totalitarian, I'd definitely say not.  Human6 would probably argue that we might have an oligarchy of some sort, which I could see being true but only to an extent.

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Caesar123This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 11, 2012 at 4:01 pm

Well you might be right in the fact America is to diverse for any leader to appeal to everyone, but think about this. If everyone is in the same situation (as most people were during the Great Depression) than that diversity would essentially disappear, or at the very least be set aside while the uniting factor (i.e. disease, bad economy) is taken care of.
 
Another way that one person could “appeal” to an entire nation is if a single faction could grow so powerful that it scared all other factions into submission. That way, the first faction could do whatever they wanted, and as long as everyone is too scared to say anything against them (i.e. Hitler in Germany back in the 30s).

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 11, 2012 at 6:03 pm

Caesar:
 
True, true.
 
On the other hand, a fascist government could be created by the unity in a fear of a different (probably socialist) government.
 
Like how during the Red Scare the HUAC started attacking anybody even remotely related to communism, using mass fear to create a sense of obligatory patriotism and unification, while drawing power to a small organization (McCarthy and his followers).
 
So maybe all we need is a good scare to make people jump to fascism.
 
Either way, all we're doing is speculating at this point, great conversation though.  I enjoyed talking!

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Breece6This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 11, 2012 at 6:03 pm

Caesar:
 
True, true.
 
On the other hand, a fascist government could be created by the unity in a fear of a different (probably socialist) government.
 
Like how during the Red Scare the HUAC started attacking anybody even remotely related to communism, using mass fear to create a sense of obligatory patriotism and unification, while drawing power to a small organization (McCarthy and his followers).
 
So maybe all we need is a good scare to make people jump to fascism.
 
Either way, all we're doing is speculating at this point, great conversation though.  I enjoyed talking!

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Caesar123This teenager is a 'regular' and has contributed a lot of work, comments and/or forum posts, and has received many votes and high ratings over a long period of time. replied...
Oct. 12, 2012 at 4:42 pm

Yeah, I found this whole thread very invigorating (even though we wound up WAY off topic).

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