You are a husband, a parent, Rainbow/PUSH president, civil rights leader,hostage negotiator, minister, political activist, teacher, TVcommentator, presidential candidate and advisor. Am I leaving anythingout?

Well, those are things I have done in the evolutionof my life's work. First I had to go through the tough period ofadolescence against the conditions of legal segregation within ourcountry.

That's different from social discrimination, where youmay choose to be with this or that group. Legal discrimination, whereyou are limited by color and the Constitution, is a much more difficultsystem. I grew up under the same laws that Nelson Mandela was arrestedunder in South Africa; I grew up in the South under laws where myfather, a veteran of World War II, returned home without the right tovote. Yet the Nazis who moved to America after World War II becamecitizens and had the right to vote.

My parents had to pay taxesbut didn't have the right to vote. African-American teachers by lawcould not make as much money as white teachers, it was illegal. Myall-black high school senior class could not take pictures on the lawnof the State Capitol; white kids could, pets could, we couldn't.

My first Christmas at college I had to write and memorize aspeech with 25 annotated references. So, I went home to the ColoredLibrary (as it was called), but they didn't have enough books. Thelibrarian recommended I go to the central public library. She told herfriend, the librarian there, that I was coming to get these books; shethought this was a friendly gesture. Two policemen just happened to beat the library as I arrived. When I asked for the books, she said,"Well, I can get them to you in five or six days."

Isaid, "Since there's no one in the library, I could go in thestacks myself and get the books." She said, "You can't,"and the police said, "You heard what she said," and that was asignal for me to get out or get arrested.

I walked out front andI looked at the sign that said Greenville Public Library, and wept.

I was determined that that summer I would enter the library.July 17, 1960, I tried with seven of my classmates, and we werearrested.

And so, I became immersed in the struggle to changeconditions. I did not know Dr. King at that time. Eventually I met him,and once I finished college, I determined I would either go to lawschool or the seminary. Finally I went to seminary. Later, of course, Iworked with Dr. King, and things flowed from that.

So, all I do now is attempt to make the world better, to make the planetfeel more even, and to build relationships that afford everybody equalprotection under the law, to leave no one behind. It all grows from thatstruggle.

I became a minister, became a father, worked with Dr.King as a political change agent, TV commentator and so, those arethings I do that all grew out of my being and my history, and my will touse my life as an instrument to seek to make things better foreverybody.



Of all your endeavors, which is themost satisfying?

At the core, I am a minister of the Gospel; thecore of my being is that I preach and proclaim the good news. And thatgood news is that we must feed the hungry. As I walk the country,one-fourth of white children are born in poverty; one-half of all blackand brown children are born in poverty. That disturbs me, so I mustaddress it. The good news is to educate the ignorant, to enlighten thosein the dark.

And thus, we fight for choice schools, but notchoice and charter schools for a few. According to the American dream,all schools should be choice, and all children should count.

Set the captive free. The captive may be in Syria, where we wentto negotiate his release in '83; the captive may be the 600 women we negotiated freedom in Iraq under Saddam Hussein before the Gulf War. Orthe captive may be the Cubans who we negotiated with Fidel Castro tofree. Or they may be the three soldiers we negotiated out of Serbia.

But sometimes captives are not just captives of some foreigngovernment; sometime people are imprisoned by their self-destructivehabits; captives of submission to failure, captives of alcohol, captivesof drugs. And so, setting the captive free sometimes can be fromexternal captivity in jail, or sometimes it's internal captivity of somebad habit; some are captives of poverty.

In our society, weconveniently make poverty and race synonymous. That allows the broadersociety to put it in a category and ignore it. Some will say,"Well, Blacks are poor, Hispanics are poor. If Blacks worked harderand didn't engage in so much crime, if Hispanics stayed at home, if theylearned to speak English, they would not be poor." We haveconvenient reasons to explain their poverty away.

Most poorchildren are neither black nor brown, they're white and they're female.Most poor people are not on welfare, they work every day. They work infast-food restaurants, they clean hotels, they drive cabs, they do theirlabor in the dark, they're aides and orderlies in hospitals, they'recooks and janitors at schools, they keep other people's children, andultimately cannot afford to take care of their own. Often they work inthe football and basketball stadiums, selling the soft drinks andrefreshments. But they are without health insurance. And they get sicktoo.

The reason we have to keep emphasizing this is because it'sso easy to make it all a matter of race - and racism is real. But thevertical gap is between the surplus culture and the deficit culture,between the haves and the have-nots. In our society too few people havetoo much media power and money and too many have so little.

It'scritical for young people to begin to analyze this in ethical terms, notjust ethnic terms, in real terms, not just stereotypedterms.


What has been your biggestdisappointment?

I've always had to travel so much in my work. Inthe formative years of my children, I didn't spend as much time at homewith them as I wish I had. Fortunately in marriage you have help, sowhile I was the provider, my wife provided the substance by taking careof them and seeing that they did their homework, teaching them theimportant values, and teaching them to say their blessings, and tellingthem what we were doing and why. So all of them are successful youngpeople today; Santita is a professional singer (she sang with RobertaFlack for a couple of years); Jesse Junior is a lawyer and congressman;Jonathan D. got his MBA from Northwestern and is a businessman; Yusef isa Univer-sity of Virginia lawyer; and Jacquelyn is in graduate schoolgetting her Ph.D.

I really wish I could have spent more time. No,I wish I had spent more time with them. You see, there were so manylittle things I didn't do because I made the trade-off of traveling anddoing so much. That's the internal agony I have to livewith.


As a pioneer of the civil rights movementof the '60s, have you met your goals?

One of my concerns is thatthere is a growing body of at-risk children in America. And though wehave more technology, access to information, every conceivable economicway to success, we're leaving more youth behind. Most urban and ruralschools are not wired for the Internet; every city I visit, there arealways two new buildings: a ballpark and a jail. Invariably first-classjails have the latest in technology, better than second-class schools.

Our children are at-risk when they are not born where they canget adequate health care in their formative years (so much learningtakes place before age 3). Prenatal care is school, and birth to age 3is voice school. Children born without those first levels of school areleft with tremendous disadvantages and that's at-risk.

And Ifeel, for example, at Christmas people focus on Santa Claus and thereindeer, and the misfortunes of Rudolph. But the at-risk character ofChristmas was not Rudolph, it was Jesus; he was born at risk. We turnthe depth of that story on its head, and see a baby who could have diedat childbirth because of the government.

Like Rome we, 2,000years later, still have many bright youngsters at risk. If the innkeeperhad known that was Jesus in the belly of Mary, she could have had thebaby in his inn. You never know the potential of some child who's bornat risk. That child may know the cure for cancer or AIDS, or otherdiseases.

Today there is anger toward America's children. Thejudges aren't seen as harsh enough so there's "Three strikes andyou're out," so judges do not give judgment. Instead there aremandatory sentences and zero tolerance. And schools take outpsychologists and psychiatrists, often take out art and music, and bringin police.

And what used to be some altercation between twostudents now, instead of going to the principal's office, becomes takingthem to the police who charge them with battery and give them a record.

So, that's why I've been involved in the Decatur problem. I'mconvinced this prevailing anger toward America's youth, and anger atthose who are not angry with America's youth, must bechallenged.

This use of our youth as targets is one ofthe real challenges in my life.


You seem to be the only remaining active, visible, national civil rights leader.Why has no one else has carried the torch?

We have a much morediverse leadership base now than we had then. At that time, for example,if we wanted to have a giant civil rights rally in Detroit, Chicago, orLos Angeles, we asked Dr. King to come. And now, in all those places,we've been able to get blacks and Hispanics, and women, as mayors who ona daily basis administer government, as opposed to having, in thatsense, just one very visible leader.

On a day-to-day basis thereare many leaders who would then have been protest leaders. They are nowlegislators. Jesse Jackson, Jr. is in Chicago on a daily basis. He maybe leading a demonstration against police brutality, or closed housingor other discrimination. When not in Chicago, he's in Washington passinglegislation.

And so, that's one explanation; there's a broad baseof leaders.

There's no real way to determine the power,personality and circumstances. The fact is, I did work with Dr. King; Iwas with him when he was killed in Memphis. We never stopped the visiblecampaign for equal protection under the law for all Americans.

Idid run for the Presidency twice, which is a very visible platform, andregistered millions of voters, and did bring Americans back home fromforeign prisons in some dramatic fashion. Those led to myvisibility.

But the strength of our struggle today, I feel, isthat more people are empowered who may be relatively nameless andfaceless. And all who are 18 and older have the right tovote.

County supervisors, city council people and statelegislators, mayors of small towns, congress people - that is the newgeneration of American leadership, holding in its hands our destiny, Ibelieve.


Throughout your years working closelywith Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., what are your greatest personalmemories?

I watched him preach in churches, lead demonstrations,do television work. But the greatest memories may have been watching himbehind the scenes.

One time we were in Selma, Alabama, and thingswere very, very tough. The state troopers were in town, and a ministernamed James Reed from Boston had been killed, and Dr. King was sittingon the bed talking to us when Robert Kennedy called, saying we needed toreduce literacy levels to secure voting rights. One of the excuses fornot letting people vote was that they were not literate enough. SoRobert Kennedy thought that we should get the level from twelfth gradedown to a sixth grade.

But Dr. King said, "No, we need 'Oneperson, one vote.'" And Kennedy said, "We can't get anybetter. We urge you not to march across the bridge because it'sdangerous. And we think we have a deal. We can get them [thelegislation] down to a sixth grade literacy level."

Butfolks would then still just deny the people the right to learn to readand write, and that would make them greater victims because theycouldn't read and write, so, [Dr. King insisted on] one person, onevote. And he would not budge from that principle.

But atthe same time, in his open briefcase was a book by Ronald Neibuhr calledMoral Man in an Immoral Society and another book, The Courage to Be, byPaul Tillich, and his Bible was opened to Scripture.

So, in themiddle of all that chaos and tension, he was still visiting andrevisiting serious literature and thinking, through all thatpressure.

I remember that very fondly.

Another time wewere in the study together, and he was preparing to preach why he wasagainst the Vietnam War. While he loved the country, he didn't love thewar and felt that we were ill advised to be in it. How pained he wasthat the soldiers were getting the brunt of the anti-war protests, notthe government. He felt conflicted by that. We must love the warriorsbut not the war. I watched him go through those dilemmas and, inretrospect, those are great moments.

And I suppose the last onewas the last birthday we spent with him - January 15, 1968. That morninghe had breakfast with his family around 8 o'clock. We actually did notknow it was his birthday; he came to the church in blue jeans and ajacket, and spent the morning working on how to organize a campaign, amulti-racial, multicultural campaign to fight poverty, to find a job andan income for every American.

So, he planned to take poor peoplefrom Mississ-ippi, from Native Ameri-can reservations, farm workers fromTexas, whites from Appalachia. This was his dream: to pull together allthese different segments. Al Lowenstein and all our Jewish allies fromNew York, and leaders from labor met that morning, Blacks and Jews, andWhites, Hispanics, Native American Indians. Some would walk, some wouldbe on mule trains, some would be flying; but we'd all converge inWashington demanding a job and income for every American.

Aroundone o'clock a friend came in with a cake and he stopped and we had alittle celebration; it was really a surprise to all of us. We laughed,and then when we finished, after about 30 minutes, focused on how tomobilize to end the war in Vietnam.

So, that morning his emphasiswas on how to end poverty in the country, the afternoon was how to endthe war.

I remember those things.


What is the best advice you've ever received?

Actually, before I met Dr.King, I met Dr. Samuel DeWitt Proctor, who was also Dr. King's mentor,and the president of North Carolina A & T State University when Iwas in college. At that time we couldn't use movie theaters, hotels ormotels, restaurants, couldn't drink at water fountains, couldn't usepublic toilets, couldn't use a public park. So, the movement came aboutto end all that. Many students became caught up in that moment in time,because it was one of those special moments in history.

Many wholeft school never came back; I was tempted to do the same thing. I wasjust as fascinated; it became a very personal thing because of my ownpain and rejection and denial of access based on the racelaw.

Dr. Proctor called me in one day and said, "I knowyou're inspired by Mike. (That's what he called Dr. King.)"But," he said, "Mike has his Ph.D. And a lot of guys aretalking, protesting and doing a good job. But because Mike is soprepared with his B.S. degree and his doctorate, having read the greatbooks, his sense of philosophy and history, his contributions willoutlast theirs. He's prepared for the struggle.

"So, if youare as committed as you say you are, you must decide now to be a studentof the movement, not just a student in the movement. You will cease tobe a student at some point, and so your commitment to the struggle mustbe your commitment to prepare to offer something of substance toit."

And so I did not leave school; actually I becamepresident of the student body. Then I went to graduate school, which wasenormously important to me in terms of preparation.

And the ironyof all is that - the ultimate irony - after finishing two years ofseminary, Dr. King came to Chicago. I had six more months to finish. Hesaid to me, "You will learn more theology right here in this roomwith me in six months than you'll learn in six years ofseminary."

I said, "It's easy for you to say, you haveyour Ph.D."

And I asked my wife who said, "I know youwant to finish, but the unique opportunity to work with Dr. King may besuch that if you remain focused it may be worth therisk."

So, I left the seminary to work with him.

But,about two months ago I went into my seminary, the Chicago TheologicalSeminary, where the new president had pulled out my records with thefaculty members. They had reviewed the courses needed to complete mydegree. I had failed preaching. And I had not done well in my counselingcourse or international relations. But the Seminary group read mypapers, articles and books since then and determined I had done enoughwork to finish my degree. They sent it to an accreditation committeewithout my name attached who also determined I had earned my Masters inTheology. So this May, I will graduate with my seminary class 33 yearslater.

One thing I did by being an active seminarian is learn tolive the Scriptures. Today we have such a superficial view of the faith.In Decatur there were young men in trouble and they said I shouldn'thave been there. Some of these boys were truants, they'd broken the law.They should not have been involved in a fight. But unlike Columbine andPaduka, there was no conspiracy. No guns, no drugs, no knives, no blood.No injuries. This did not warrant a two-year expulsion from school. Ifthere'd been knives and stabbing, that would have been another degree.If there'd been guns, that would have been another degree. But theykicked them out of school for years; that was too severe. This isbecause of Zero Tolerance, which is not very well defined, and wipesthem out of school without providing an alternative.

That's called controversial leadership because it's not popularto stand up for youth who are in trouble. Often leaders of substancehave to take on the controversial role of defending those whose backsare against the wall, because it's the right thing to do. It's not easy,sometimes quite dangerous, but you have to have enough faith to do thatwhich you believe is right. In time it will outlast opinionpolls.


Many teens today equate success with money.What does success mean to you?

Making money and successsynonymous is a big mistake. Money as currency can be used as a means tocertain ends. Suppose you have food and no appetite? It can be as bad ashaving an appetite and no food. Suppose you have money, lots of money,but you got it illegally and end up in jail, and your parents are leftwith a broken heart. How can you mend a broken heart with money?

I have preached at funerals of some very famous people: JoeLewis, Jackie Robinson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sammy Davis, Jr., amongothers. And recently I did the memorial for Walter Payton, the footballplayer. But I've never seen a U-Haul trailer attached to a singlehearse; you can't bring the money with you. When Walter Payton died,most people knew he gained the most yards ever running a football. Butwhat did he really do?

There's a song in our tradition thatsays, "What you're called upon to do for Christ will last." Itrefers to the things that matter, and though money has a role tofacilitate basic necessities, money can't buy dignity.

Part of itis driven by TV asking what's your wish list, "I wish I had anexpensive cashmere sweater, I wish I had a mink coat, I wish I hadsneakers, I wish I had - " You start wishing for things that youcan't afford, your eyes get big.

Often people close the gap bystealing or embezzling. You're caught up in some unintended consequenceof a wish list, instead of focusing on a thank-you list, which isessentially non-materialistic. You can thank God for the life of yourparents now, without a dime. You can go home and help your mother orfather do some chore they wouldn't expect you to do, just to make themhappy now.

You can avoid liquor and drugs now, it doesn't costany money; you can avoid getting a gun and looking to shoot or get shotnow, it doesn't cost any money; you can go to the public library and tapinto the Internet and talk to the whole world now; you can look at thefact that you have a healthy body with a healthy outlook on lifenow.

Things that mean the most don't involve money. I often askkids to name the top five dead billionaires they would like to be. Theysay they wouldn't want to be any of them because they're dead. It meansthat life is the treasure, right?

You should be materialisticenough to have decent clothes and a nice house, transportation, food, ajob or work ethic. You should be materialistic enough to achieve, butnot mindlessly materialistic. That's when you getgreedy.



You once said, "I am not a perfect servant;be patient, God is not finished with me yet." What do you feel Godstill has in store for you?

That was said in the contextof a very tough political campaign where there's always a tendency totake imperfect people and try and make them live up to standards. Ifthey don't, then tear them down and destroy them, which often happens ina campaign. That's what they call negative campaigning. And in effect Iwas saying that to people in San Francisco, that in the course of mycampaign I had made mistakes and had regrets. There were some momentsI'd like to relive, but you can't unscramble the egg. So, if in my angerI inadvertantly hurt somebody, I was sorry; if I helped somebody, I'mglad. But don't judge me by this campaign, because God is not finishedwith me yet. I have more to do.

So, I ran again, an even bettercampaign, and got more people to vote. Since that time, we've broughtAmericans out of Iraq. Since that time, we've brought Americans out ofSerbia; helped free South Africa, helped release Mr. Mandela. The pointis the work continues and so, as someone once asked, I think it was St.Augustine, how do you account for having such a successful life? What'syour formula? You can write you can read, you can listen. But what isthe real formula for being a successful person? He said, "I preachthe Gospel every day and I use words sometimes - when I have to."Which is a way of saying we should reach out to help people. We shouldbe teaching. And what we should all be doing is taking our light intodark places. And our heat to cold places. And share that which God hasgiven to us with somebody else; that is our ultimate validation.


What is your new book about?

JesseJunior and I have written a book called It's About the Money. It's not aget-rich-quick scheme. It's about teaching people the elements offinancial management. Let's say you graduated from college, but don'tknow how to buy a car, get car insurance or how to buy a house; all youknow is credit cards. Now that you have a job, you can buy what you canbuy, and go where you want to go. You end up trapped in debt. You can'tmanage your financial future.

So, It's About the Money is a wayto complete the four-stage movement. The first stage of our struggle wasending slavery, the second was to end legal segregation; the third stagewas to give all Americans the right to vote; the fourth stage is to haveaccess to capital.

One of the features of our Wall Street projectis the Stock Market Game, where we teach people all around the countrythe science of the stock market. Seventy-five students in Chicago arelearning how to read the stock pages. I'm giving these 75 children $200each to buy some stock. They've begun to follow the stocks and they'relearning the language of the market. They're beginning to take controlof their own financial future. This is important because our youth todayare being exploited to buy more clothes than they can wear, to buy carsto enhance their personalities rather than to take them where they needto go. They're getting trapped in all that mindless materialism so it'san attempt to regain and redirect our values. So, It's About the Money.